JUNK! Blowpro

[Dallarax19]

This is the third one I know of that has blown like this. They just can't handle the high performance engines. Difficult to see in the pic but both 1-2 and 3-4 seal was on their way to do the same. I had another gasket previous to this one that lost it's seal between the coolant passage and the cylinder. So, four failed gaskets between three cars. Not a good statistic. Three of these failed in a short time, don't know how long the 4th lasted.

I will stick with the stock gaskets.

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

What type of finish is on your head and block deck----mirror, ground, or milled?

 

[Ulix]

Did you retorque?

I didn't and so far it is still good.
1600 with 11:1 CR.

 

[Eastep]

I was always under the impression anything over about 11:1 compression on these motors, and you will have trouble keeping head gaskets. If your motor is running 12-13-14 compression, your going to be spending alot of time replacing them. The suggestion on milling specs and pistons etc.. when building these motors, isnt suggested because the engine cant take it; its because finding a gasket to contain that compression is non existent (at least thin enough to be practical)

 

[Matt Brannon - Midwest Bayless]

I know you know...

...your way around this engine, but this, in my opinion is not a function of a faulty gasket.

That center between 2&3 is destroyed in a way that only detonation, head lift, or an untrue deck will do.

Think about it, if the gasket is sealed properly, the first line of defense is the continuous steel ring all the way around. I find it hard to believe that a stock gasket ring would be any better or worse than the Felpro one.

Is the head milled excessively? What size is the bore? Do the gasket fire rings overhang the bores at all?

-M

 

[bikesandcars]

I think I agree with Matt, not knowing the details. It seems that surfacing (both block and head) and/or torquing would be the culprit assuming there is no overhang due to excessive bore. It looks like the steel ring actually melted, which to me means it wasn't making good contact and removing heat.

If not Felpro, what else do people suggest? Is there a better solution? Is there a copper gasket around?

 

[AngleT]

copper head gaskets

I haven't used them, but been taking a look at maybe getting one.
http://www.headgasket.com/gaskets.html

 

[fastx19]

I hate to jump on the bandwagon...

But I had a felpro on my 14:1 motor and it ran for five years without a problem.

The way the gasket failed is something other than the gasket.

Sorry you are having all the problems.

Eric.

 

[Paul Valente]

Hey does it look like this?

Less than 1000 miles. Guess my 9:1 compression and wicked stock Ducellier distributor was too much for it. :lol:

Seriously, if your Felpro worked great for you, then great! But, I think it would be a pretty big leap for someone to conclude there is no chance there was/is a quality problem with the Felpro gasket based on their personal experience. The fact that there are even a few documented cases in such a small group of this exact same failure on VASTLY different motors should send up red flags for anyone that is thinking reasonably about it. Even if Brian's and my gaskets were only two (and I actuall know of one more) out of say 100 parts then that is still abysmal quality at a whopping 20,000 ppm.

If I had to guess I'd say some defective parts got out of the factory. If you get a good one, everything is fine and you sing its praises. If you get a defective one, then you have a promlem.

I know I bought my Felpro from Vicks. Not sure where Brian's came from. Maybe there is a correlation with the distributor?

Just my :2c:

PV

PS Oh, the replacement no-name Italian head gasket has been perfect so far. Keep your fingers crossed for me :wink2:

 

[bikesandcars]

Less than 1000 miles. Guess my 9:1 compression and wicked stock Ducellier distributor was too much for it. :lol:

...


PS Oh, the replacement no-name Italian head gasket has been perfect so far. Keep your fingers crossed for me :wink2:

I have a couple questions just to understand the true cause: Unless the steel ring was complete pot metal or made from silver solder, it shouldn't melt like that. heat should be transferring from the ring to the head/block and keeping it from burning through.

Did you surface both block and head after this felpro bit the dust (and you put the Italian replacement on?

Did you surface both block and head before you put the felpro on?

 

[fastx19]

Paul..

You have a good point.

I have a felpro gasket on the shelf for the 128 or X and it does not have the proper holes cutout for oil. Big issue if that was installed.

There may be a group of faulty ones. Looking at the pictures again, I am surprised by how straight the blow by is. Paul's failure almost looks like it was purposely cut in this area.

Interesting...

Eric

 

[Paul Valente]

You are sort of missing the point.

I have a couple questions just to understand the true cause

Thanks for the concern but I'm not asking your advice (it is not even my thread) and I'm disinclined to go down this path with you of finding the "true cause". We both probably know how to install a head gasket...at least I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that account. A courtesy which you seem reluctant to extend to me based on your line of questioning. Rest assured that everything was measured very accurately, inspected to a ridiculous degree and the gasket installed in a most professional manner. I'm funny like that and have access to a lot of good equipment.

Thanks anyhow for your willingness to help :thumbsup:

 

[bikesandcars]

I have a couple questions just to understand the true cause

Thanks anyhow for your willingness to help :thumbsup:

sarcasm noted.

It wasn't my felpro gasket that blew, I've never had a problem with them, It was yours. If you are disinclined suit yourself. nothing happens for no reason.

I'm glad you take care in your engine assembly. You kind of dodged my specific question about surfacing, can we assume you completely verified the level between the cylinders?

 

[Dallarax19]

Wow, did not expect such a response

I will answer the questions or provide comments:

1) Yes it was retorqued, the first felpro I used failed quickly but was not however retorqued, called a friend at Federal Mogul and he said definitely they need to be retorqued, more of a marketing gimmick for service guys

2) The head was milled a couple of years back to bump my compression to 10.55/1 I am confident it is flat, it has less than 500 miles on it in fact this is the gasket installed for that mod.

3) The block may not be perfect, never have taken a cut from it and certainly could be a contributor (the failure is worse on the head side though - hmmm)

4) Lean condition, not very likely. I have a rich running condition I can't seem to get just right.

5) The bore is stock, never machined. If the gasket overhangs the bore then it is certainly NFG.

5) I have had this engine together for 18yrs now and modified when I wanted to try something new. I have never had a stock gasket fail but the two Blowpros (yes I find that funny - and accurate) failed - you do the math

6) Timing is a possibility however full advance is 36-38deg and the ramp up profile is the same as FI dist- nothing alarming there

I got a crack up at some of the responses. Frankly no one really knows what the failure mode was. Is is heat, cyclic fatigue, or a pressing defect? No one really knows. The point of posting this information is to inform folks of a problem I had with these gaskets. Volunteering a prognosis is your prerogative so have at it, seems that was a popular trend recently with Armageddon end of the world etc- you get the drift. For those who are contemplating a head gasket replacement I suggest you use stock. I think Paul summed it up very well. For my engine there could be reason for speculation but his, hmmmm not really.

 

[Ulix]

A little misunderstanding maybe?

Hi Paul,

I don't think anyone here wants to find fault with your (or Brian's) work to protect the reputation of this particular head gasket.

So far, the FP gasket has mostly been reviewed very well here, even by people racing their cars. Based on that reputation, people have installed this gasket in their motors. I, for example, pay rediculous shipping costs to have the FP gasket sent to me in Germany, since it is not available here.

So I think it is sound engineering to try to find out the cause of the problem, if only to make me sleep better since I still run this gasket in my engine and have a spare one on the shelf.

 

[Rupunzell]

Two of these Fel-Pro head gaskets with a similar failure in the LeMons engine twice (once at Thunder Hill and at Button-willow), between cylinders# 2 & 3.

This engine also suffered a head bolt washer failure, the washer fractured. This one is the older Fiat M12, powerded metal version that is quite thick. Fiat stopped using these when they made the change over to the M10 head bolts.

Both exhaust valves are near this area of the head gasket, it MIGHT be possible that the head gasket is being subjected to higher than typical temperatures in that area.. without some hard, accurate data, most everything remains speculation.

Got to wonder if Fel-Pro is willing to offer any answers or offer a better gasket.

I did put an inquiry to Cometic to see if they might offer a performance gasket for this Fiat engine, they do offer one for the Fiat twin cam.

All this has got me wondering.. It would be good to try and figure out what is actually happening here.


Bernice

 

[Rupunzell]

Reply from Cometic Gasket. I'm going to further this inquiry as the need for a better head gasket is very real.

What are folks in the EU and else where using for performance head gaskets?

Bernice

~~~~~~~~~~~
For the Fiat 1500cc SOHC, I can manufacture a head gasket in copper, or our CFM-20 (composite fiber w/metal fire rings around bores). I am not able to do this specific gasket in our MLS due to not having the tooling for the needed embossments.

Thanks
Chris Workman
Technical Sales
Cometic Gasket
8090 Auburn Road
Concord, OH 44077
Phone: 440-354-0777 Ext. 133
Fax: 440-354-0350

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

Stainless O-Ring?

This is what they use in the drag racing world: http://www.federalmogul.com/en/Afte.../EngineRepair/PerformanceHeadGaskets/LocWire/


My machinist buddy tells me he considers head gaskets to be just like the fuse or circuit breaker in an electrical circuit---it's there to give up its life to save something much more expensive, like pistons and the damage that can be done to a block by a melted piston.

 

[Eastep]

'But I had a felpro on my 14:1 motor and it ran for five years without a problem. "


I thought that high of compression was too much for most head gaskets on these motors, and thus would pop them with regularity?

Ulix: If you have trouble getting Fel-pro's there, just let me know and I'll ship them to you. They are like $20 here then what ever shipping to Germany is... $20-25..? Buy several and I can package them all together and you sell the others to you DE X1/9 friends

 

[Rupunzell]

Cometic Gasket..

Spoke to the technical folks there, they suggested that the cylinder 2-3 gasket failures could be due to both exhaust valves being together in that area of the head gasket retains more heat and if there is ANY fire ring over hang, the fire ring will remain beyond red hot causing it to eventually burn thru.

The 2-3 failures might be due to the fire ring being too close to the cylinder bore edge.

Could those who still have failed Fel-Pro head gaskets send their failed head gaskets to the tech folks at Cometic ?

I have set this up with their tech folks Mike & Chris:

Technical Sales
Cometic Gasket
8090 Auburn Road
Concord, OH 44077.

We will figure out why this is happening and get a workable solution. One way or another.

Bernice