JUNK! Blowpro

Gastket Failing.

Unfortuneately I will have to throw my hat into the same ring.

Currently my car is running and fairly well but I am seeing a leak into the coolant system. The FelPro gasket that has been retorqued has lasted about 4000 miles. I am not gentle on the car but it is apparent that the leak is contaminating the coolant with gases. I must bleed the rad every time I take out he car on the road. Idling causes a break down in circulation and the car starts to overheat. There is a positive pressure in the coolant system at all times even after cooling down over night.

My can of Heldite has dried out and I have a new can on it's way but the Post Office in Canada is on Strike. I will have the Heldite shipped to FFO and will have to change the Head Gastket when I am in Nashville or on route when I am at Bob Martins in Kentucky.

I will go back to the Stock head Gasket and use Heldite. This method of installation has never failed on this car yet. I was impressed with the FelPro Gasket and felt that it was a better option with less cleaning when removing the head. Live and learn.


TonyK.


Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Head Gasket Failed.

I took the car out last night air temps at about 70 degrees.

Car was over heating when Idling. Lots of pressure in the expansion tank. Bit the bullet and tore down then engine.

Looks like failure was at #4 on the manifold side of the Gasket. Ironicly it tested highest for compression.

I used this head gasket because it was stated as high performance have my doubts about that.


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TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
FelPro Gasket

No Robert this gasket is very smooth with a plastic like coating.

The stock Gasket I use a paper towel wetted in thinners to remove most of the Grafite then coat the gasket on both sides with Heldite and the block and head as well. Then close up the joint. That method has never failed me. It is a bit of a mess to clean up when you take off the head again, but worth the effort.

There is a vendor in Quebec that sells Heldite, just plain stupid prices. Min order of 3 250 ML cans at $45 Per can plus $80 for shipping, I declined and ordered from the UK $18 a tin plus shipping.

Here is a picture of the head cleaned and ready to go back on the engine. Just a mention the cambox gaskets that Matt Brannon is selling are very good. This is the first time I have taken an engine apart and will be able to use the cam box gasket again.


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TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Last edited:
Victor Reinz

Looks as though I will need to replace my head gasket soon (was planning to change the head anyway, but the work has been brought forward).

In any case, I will be trying a Victor Reinz head gasket. Although it is neigh impossible to find any reference of a Victor Reinz head gasket for an X1/9, I believe that the part number for a late model (14 bolt) head is 61-31825-10 (or the older part number 61-31825-00). The complete gasket set has the part number 02-31825-01. Victor Reinz is well known for quality head gaskets for other marques.

The catalog is available at: http://www.reinz.com/pictures/PKW_FIAT.pdf

Here is a picture of the gasket:

headgasket.gif


It is listed for the following applications:

1,5 138 C2.048
138 C3.048
149 A5.000
55-58 kW
(75-79 PS)
REGATA
RITMO
UNO

1,5 149 C1.000
55 kW (75 PS)
ELBA
FIORINO
REGATA
RITMO
UNO

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Oldie but a goodie, I'm going to blow the dust off this thread and re-iterate what the original poster, myself, and several others commented.

If you have a FelPro gasket in the package like shown above, throw it in the trash. If you are considering purchasing a FelPro head gasket from a national supplier, do not do it.

Yes, back in the day, they used to be good.

But sometime in the past they made a large batch with bad metal for the fire rings. They are still supplying this same batch of gaskets with the same exact problem fire rings. I spoke to a client today, who had two consecutive failures of having 1/4" channels burned between cylinders after less than 10 miles of use on a resurfaced head and decked block. Below is a picture of a problem gasket we had with the telltale issue.

23320.jpg


-M
 
Last edited:
Matt Brannon - Midwest Bayless said:
Oldie but a goodie, I'm going to blow the dust off this thread and re-iterate what the original poster, myself, and several others commented.

If you have a FelPro gasket in the package like shown above, throw it in the trash. If you are considering purchasing a FelPro head gasket from a national supplier, do not do it.

Yes, back in the day, they used to be good.

But sometime in the past they made a large batch with bad metal for the fire rings. They are still supplying this same batch of gaskets with the same exact problem fire rings. I spoke to a client today, who had two consecutive failures of having 1/4" channels burned between cylinders after less than 10 miles of use. Below is a picture of a problem gasket we had with the same issue.

23320.jpg


-M
Click to expand...

There are many more likely explanations for a failed head gasket than "those Fel-Pro gaskets suck."

Such as:
1. Mating surfaces (head and/or block) not properly cleaned
2. Mating surfaces not checked for flatness to spec
3. Mating surfaces without correct surface finish (RA too little or too much).
4. Improper re-use of head bolts
5. Improper torqueing procedure for the type of head bolts and gasket
6. Using an ASTADUR-type of gasket which has been improperly stored (exposed to air).
7. Engine issues such as deficient cooling system performance, detonation due to improper timing, mixture, etc.

Many of the above are endemic to half-assed backyard mechanics and cheap-assed owners
 
Fail-Pro, strikes again!
I was re reading the posts and read some I made with regards to high compression and HG failure. Matt: I believe I had spoke to you years ago, on the phone, about this? Could you please state for the archives & general rule of thumb; a compression ration that really not be exceeded, with these motors?
If memory serves me well, I seem to recall nothing over around 11:1 or 11:5.1 on pump gas??
 
I think Chris-St.Louis summed this thread up pretty accurately back in the days before he was banned and his posts deleted. I miss that guy. If you don't recall the post, I'll leave it to your imaginations.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
There are many more likely explanations for a failed head gasket than "those Fel-Pro gaskets suck."

Such as:
1. Mating surfaces (head and/or block) not properly cleaned
2. Mating surfaces not checked for flatness to spec
3. Mating surfaces without correct surface finish (RA too little or too much).
4. Improper re-use of head bolts
5. Improper torqueing procedure for the type of head bolts and gasket
6. Using an ASTADUR-type of gasket which has been improperly stored (exposed to air).
7. Engine issues such as deficient cooling system performance, detonation due to improper timing, mixture, etc.

Many of the above are endemic to half-assed backyard mechanics and cheap-assed owners
Click to expand...

That's what we said too until it happened to us on a motor that I know was 100% right. And the others here who had similar problems know their way around these engines.

I beat the **** out of our race motors and knock on wood have never had a head gasket failure, ever, either on the track or during dyno pulls. We built a street 1500 with decked block and head for a client, and popped this gasket in under 100 miles with the motor at 10:1 and 7K RPM. This failure as shown is not due to detonation, or caused by running lean or running hot. A gap between two cylinders like this is typically caused by a shallow spot in the block or head, and develops slowly over hundreds and thousands of miles. On a freshly decked engine block, razor straight, mirror-surface head, that had correct torque and retorque sequence followed, it can only then be surmised to be a problem with either the metallurgy or physical construction of the fire ring.
 
For quite some time there have been many posts stating the FelPro head gaskets are no longer available. And indeed they are not listed on their website anymore. Also, no one seems to find any old stock available. So their quality (or lack there of) may well be a mute point.

Seems other members have had a lot of head gasket failures with several other brands as well. And I don't recall reading about any one brand that everyone agrees is better. Perhaps it is not all the gasket's fault? I don't know.

Regarding Dom's earlier post about "Victor Reinz" brand head gaskets. A few years ago I had a very interesting conversation with a family that owns a large gasket/seal/etc products factory in China. They stated all of VR's gasket and seal products are made by them in China, and showed me overwhelming evidence to support their claim. After some research I found Germany has a rule that allows German companies to claim their products are 'made in Germany' if they provide some type of "enhancement" to an item that is actually made elsewhere. And their courts have determined the packaging of a product in a box labeled with a German brand name constitutes an 'enhancement' to that product. So they can have parts made in China in boxes labeled "VR" (or whoever) and claim it is made in Germany [I am simplifying it here for the sake of space]. The same family also makes such products for several other big name companies throughout the world. However this is not necessarily a bad thing. There are some excellent products made in China. Just like anywhere else, there are good and bad things from there so it depends on who is making it and to what level of quality. I purchased some products from this family and found them to be great. And as Dom stated, VR seems to have a fairly good reputation.
 
Matt Brannon - Midwest Bayless said:
That's what we said too until it happened to us on a motor that I know was 100% right. And the others here who had similar problems know their way around these engines.

I beat the **** out of our race motors and knock on wood have never had a head gasket failure, ever, either on the track or during dyno pulls. We built a street 1500 with decked block and head for a client, and popped this gasket in under 100 miles with the motor at 10:1 and 7K RPM. This failure as shown is not due to detonation, or caused by running lean or running hot. A gap between two cylinders like this is typically caused by a shallow spot in the block or head, and develops slowly over hundreds and thousands of miles. On a freshly decked engine block, razor straight, mirror-surface head, that had correct torque and retorque sequence followed, it can only then be surmised to be a problem with either the metallurgy or physical construction of the fire ring.
Click to expand...

Seems like points #3 and #5 were violated.

"mirror surface"
These gaskets are not to be treated as if they are a modern MLS gasket that requires a very low RA finish. Too smooth of a finish will not allow for the proper bite to keep the gasket in place. These are older technology, and the finish used should mimic what was provided at initial factory assembly. The OEM surface for both the block and head have the characteristics of being made with a rotary broach style of surfacing, which leaves shallow concentrically radiating grooves produced by a rotating cutter head with 10, 20, or more cutting tool bits.


"correct torque and retorque sequence followed"
The Fel-pro gasket pictured is an ASTADUR-type of gasket, and for that type of gasket combined with the OEM 17mm headed "stretch" head bolts, the FIAT service manual calls for a torque and angle installation and does not call for retorquing. The gasket manufacturer does not call for retorquing. If aftermarket head bolts were used (hopefully old head bolts were not re-used), the instructions that accompany them do not call for retorquing.
 
We digested two of these "Blow Pro" head gaskets back in the days whey the LeMons racer still had the modified stock power train. Post "Blow Pro" failures, stock OEM Fiat head gaskets were used with zero problems.

Question is, why is there an obsession with "Fel Pro" head gaskets for this Fiat engine when there are better and known reliable alternatives (like OEM Fiat and others) ?


Bernice
 
Rupunzell said:
Question is, why is there an obsession with "Fel Pro" head gaskets for this Fiat engine when there are better and known reliable alternatives (like OEM Fiat and others) ?
Bernice
Click to expand...
Im going to venture and say, its partly because too many people, who don't want to research on their own, which brands are currently offering the best quality. They are stuck on the name and/or because it was what the guy at Autozone had in stock. It's what I like to call "The Fram Syndrome". Fram made a good filter, at one time, many many decades ago. People, not in the know, still think that Fram is a quality filter, and insist on installing them. You'd probably get better filtration by using cheese cloth, then a Fram.

Btw I have a Fail-Pro HG if anyone wants it? Cover shipping.
 
Eastep said:
Im going to venture and say, its partly because too many people, who don't want to research on their own, which brands are currently offering the best quality. They are stuck on the name and/or because it was what the guy at Autozone had in stock. It's what I like to call "The Fram Syndrome". Fram made a good filter, at one time, many many decades ago. People, not in the know, still think that Fram is a quality filter, and insist on installing them. You'd probably get better filtration by using cheese cloth, then a Fram.

Btw I have a Fail-Pro HG if anyone wants it? Cover shipping.
Click to expand...

I'll call dibbs on that, pending inspection next Saturday. :)
 
In the marketing world, this is known as brand identity inertia. Once a brand identity (what any given qualities associated with a given brand) has been established, it becomes ingrained into the market's mind and is very difficult to change. This is why car manufactures go racing to win. These victories become the public image of that brand, over time and publicity those victories and good PR becomes ingrained into the market's mind even when their production products have ZERO commonality with the vehicle that did the winning. What the market cares about is that public image of being a winner and being associated with that brand-tribe, it is also know as Social Status.

Fel-Pro is an established American "Hot Rodder" brand. They built their reputation for quality gaskets many decades ago. Much like Fram's oil filters that were once good, they have been de-contented by bean counters, management, driven by the President-CEO and Board of Directors to produce as much profit and return on investment for their share holders, investors, bankers all else does not matter. The brand rides on their past of being good even if their current offering is junk. In the market's mind, their past reputation is reasons enough to make the purchase. The other way this game is played, customers are offered ZERO purchasing options for what they need aka Monopoly.

*Think of that ad lingo, "Pennsylvania Grade Crude Oil" being advertised as the best for making engine oil and how that stuck in the market's mind for decades.

These days, products offered by companies must be very carefully analyzed before even being considered to be used. Brand and reputation should have about zero value as how their product-offering actually performs matters most. It is only after their offerings have been proven in the most demanding conditions that a return purchase should ever be considered.



Bernice



Eastep said:
Im going to venture and say, its partly because too many people, who don't want to research on their own, which brands are currently offering the best quality. They are stuck on the name and/or because it was what the guy at Autozone had in stock. It's what I like to call "The Fram Syndrome". Fram made a good filter, at one time, many many decades ago. People, not in the know, still think that Fram is a quality filter, and insist on installing them. You'd probably get better filtration by using cheese cloth, then a Fram.

Btw I have a Fail-Pro HG if anyone wants it? Cover shipping.
Click to expand...
 
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