K20 project off to a good start

Regardless of Tim's comments about the box...

even if he is correct and your design is obstructive... it is still too nice to cover up...

I suggest you just stop right now, chrome it, frame it, and donate the entire project to a museum...
 
I will check it again

The cover frame that comes with the kit is only so big and much smaller than the firewall opening. We opened the firewall hole down to the top of the original frame rail to allow good access to the water pump and cooling system plumbing, which seems to be the most involved retrofit area. The pictures I have seen of the thermostat and corresponding plumbing to the radiator looks like a real rats nest to me so I wanted to be able to work in there easily. The box is slanted down on the top and up on the bottom to meet the frame. The alternator is pretty much in the middle of the engine, so the only thing above it is the pulley from the kit to replace the original power steering pump. I do plan to add air conditioning to this car, but it will be a full aftermarket system so I plan to use aftermarket compressor, not the Acura one. We will have to fabricate a mounting bracket for it to mount to the power steering pump mount. That can be accessed well from the engine bay.

In this picture, there is a stud in the firewall to the left of the opening that is about level with the top of the alternator pulley.
IMG_1065.JPG


In this picture, there appears to be good access to the alternator, based on the stud location.
IMG_1104.JPG


I will definitely check the slave cylinder clearance. I think it is still attached to the transmission but not positive. I also just got my gas tank back on Friday, so we will be trying that in as well with the subframe. I really appreciate all of your advice!!
 
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Nice! You are doing it right. Opening the access panel to the frame rail is a good idea as the plumbing on the coolant lines IS as you say, a rats nest. I wish I had done that ;)
 
Me too...

Nice! You are doing it right. Opening the access panel to the frame rail is a good idea as the plumbing on the coolant lines IS as you say, a rats nest. I wish I had done that ;)

Or, at least, I wish Matt had done it. Getting into that area to work on the coolant lines or thermostat is hell. The proverbial 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb sack.



Pete
 
Nice work on the access area! If it's non-structural, why not have the inner frame closer to the revised aperture dimensions?

Or, at least, I wish Matt had done it. Getting into that area to work on the coolant lines or thermostat is hell. The proverbial 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb sack.



Pete

YIKES!

Couldn't some of that have been consolidated by making a welded aluminum branch that incorporated at least some of those short elbows? What is that bloated "T" fitting for? It's not the thermostat housing, or is it?

BTW - Pete - your (+) connection on the Alt looks a little iffy - look at the way the exposed cable outside the crimp has settled. At least a section of reinforced heat shrink tube would help keep that more stable, no?
 
Yeah, it's a bit cramped

Couldn't some of that have been consolidated by making a welded aluminum branch that incorporated at least some of those short elbows? What is that bloated "T" fitting for? It's not the thermostat housing, or is it?

BTW - Pete - your (+) connection on the Alt looks a little iffy - look at the way the exposed cable outside the crimp has settled. At least a section of reinforced heat shrink tube would help keep that more stable, no?

That bloated T fitting IS the thermostat. It's a dual action unit from a Beta.

I didn't want to weld it directly to the water pump inlet, for two reasons:

1. I would have to fab a new plate over the water pump and reweld to a new thermostat if the thermostat needed changing.

2. Welding on a thermostat did not seem like such a great idea, I was afraid the heat would weaken the spring or change its tension properties. Although I did end up welding on one of the connections a little bit, but the heat was well controlled by working on small sections and keeping a wet towel on it closer to the actual spring.

I completely agree with you about the connection, but it's a good half inch from any ground point. I will address it next time I'm in there.

Pete
 
RE: frame

Nice work on the access area! If it's non-structural, why not have the inner frame closer to the revised aperture dimensions?

Yes, it would be nicer if the frame were bigger, but that is how it comes from Matt with the kit. There is the frame with tapped holes for the cover screws as well as a nice cover panel to match it. I suppose you could cut the frame and add to it to make it bigger, but then you would have to make a new cover panel, etc... At this point, I am happy with it.
 
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That bloated T fitting IS the thermostat. It's a dual action unit from a Beta.

I didn't want to weld it directly to the water pump inlet, for two reasons:

1. I would have to fab a new plate over the water pump and reweld to a new thermostat if the thermostat needed changing.

2. Welding on a thermostat did not seem like such a great idea, I was afraid the heat would weaken the spring or change its tension properties. Although I did end up welding on one of the connections a little bit, but the heat was well controlled by working on small sections and keeping a wet towel on it closer to the actual spring.

I completely agree with you about the connection, but it's a good half inch from any ground point. I will address it next time I'm in there.

Pete

I will add that having flexible lines everywhere would seem to be a waste of space, it does however allow you to "flex" and move the lines some when you need to get behind them at other bits. Matt's in-house swaps modify the upper hose line manifold with a aluminum tube (where I have the 180 degree bend with the hoses upper right in pic). If I recall, Pete removed his when he re-plumbed some of his cooling lines.

I did opt to add an aluminum 90 degree "L" tube - you can see in the pic. It helped with room and there is nothing behind I need to get to.

The next build (yes - there will be one) I will make better use of the space. For one, the aluminum L will run all the way to the right and attach directly to the 180 degree hose eliminating the straight flexible one. There are just too many bits you need to get at so making a single unit won't work. It needs to be modular.

IMG_00084.jpg
 
Progress report 3: final check on clearances

So Kris has cut out the partial panel between the engine bay and the exhaust compartment, and welded in additional bracing above the rear control arm mounts. Here is a picture looking up through the exhaust compartment.
WP_20150310_001.jpg


With the engine back in, we checked the clearance for the fuel tank outlet and return. Looks like plenty of room so I'm not sure what issue Tim had with his. Looks okay for the panel covering the parking brake pulleys although I did not have that with me.
WP_20150310_002.jpg


Tim, you are right about the clutch slave cylinder. Tight, but seems ok (I hope).
WP_20150310_009.jpg


The firewall box is tacked in place and looks good for access to the vital parts.
WP_20150310_005.jpg


Here are a couple of other pics of the engine on the subframe in position.
WP_20150310_004.jpg
WP_20150310_003.jpg


Kris just needs to fabricate a mount for the coolant overflow tank and weld the last engine mount to the left side of the engine bay, then clean up the welds and make everything look pretty. He hopes to have it in the zinc chromate primer by Friday, then on to the filler, sanding, and at long last paint! Can't wait.
 
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I think you might set a record for quickest swap!

The issues I had are likely due to my sub-frame only. I am glad to see it is working out. The clutch slave looks to have plenty of room as well.

Good work so far.
 
It's going quickly now....just wait

I think you might set a record for quickest swap!

The issues I had are likely due to my sub-frame only. I am glad to see it is working out. The clutch slave looks to have plenty of room as well.

Good work so far.

It helps that someone else is doing the work. If I had to do this in my spare time, it would never get done. I do have a full time job and a family that still likes to spend time with me (for now), so once I get the car back from the body shop, it will be a long slow rebuild. My wife is always saying "are you going out that garage again!!" Unfortunately, I have really become addicted to this whole project and I am not really good at multitasking. Once I get going on something, it tends becomes my sole focus until I get it done.

I just finally got the original suspension taken apart to get that cleaned up as well as all of the little parts and pieces that I will be putting back on the car off to the powder coater yesterday. I also need to get all of the nuts, bolts, and brackets together that I want to get replated and get those over there. This is going to be a full-on shell-up restomod so lots to do.

I took a look at your photo album again on Google as I hadn't looked at it since I first decided to do the K20. What a wealth of information. Thanks for taking the time to post and share your experience. You obviously have a lot more skills (and tools) than I do. I also saw what the issue was with the gas tank outlets. My subframe is different from yours. Yours extends forward around the left front engine mount, whereas mine has the mount incorporated into that section of the frame. Here is a picture of yours that I got from your photo album.
Tim subframe.jpg

Here is the front section of mine. Big difference in the clearance to the gas tank, so Matt obviously made some improvements. He also used bent round tubing instead of welded square tubing to make the corners tighter.
IMG_1021.JPG
 
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... uh.... yeah... about that....

...Tim was the unwitting recipient of one of the last K20 kits built by Fabricator 1.0, who had a penchant for fiddling with existing, proven designs from build to build, in a best-of-intentions effort to save time, materials, etc...

Without really thinking through all of the ramifications of said "simplifications".

Unfortunately I did not realize that a unit with changed design was shipped, and Tim did not discover the "gotcha" until he had everything in place and tried to install the handbrake cable assembly plate.

:sigh:

Needless to say, Tim now has a "correct" subframe identical to yours, built to the original spec by Fabricator 2.0.


-M
 
"Fabricator 1.0" here.

A couple of notes:

1) Keep in mind that we never had a research and development phase on the K20 conversions and kits. Pete's car was as close as we got. Sorry, Pete. I made changes and improvements from one kit or build to the next when I thought it might be beneficial. Some changes were accepted. Some were not. No matter what the changes were, nothing got boxed up without the boss seeing it.

2) The firewall opening has to be tall at the top for intake manifold clearance. The K20 intake is pretty high up in the bay. I always positioned the firewall access panel higher up than pictured above. I liked the idea of having a slope to prevent water from collecting on the firewall extension. I also liked the idea of preserving more of a vertical component across the bottom of the opening. With the box compete, that vertical component is very strong when exposed to a vertical stress. Wherever I had to remove that vertical component completely, I reinforced the body in that area with tubing.

3) Regarding the water neck on the head, I went through some changes on that, but all cars after Pete's has some variation of the same theme--90 degrees of bend welded to the original neck with an arm long enough to reach through the clearance between the intake manifold and starter. A silicone 90 attached to the end of that to turn down toward the under-car coolant pipe. Because the engine moves and vibrates, I would not recommend any longer an arm on the water neck, particularly when working from the original die cast flange. Too long an arm there without any support is bound to fail eventually.
 
Thanks Matt for explaining it. I really didn't want to muddy things up and your explanation is perfect. I wanted to thank you for letting me hang onto the original frame while I install the new one.

Regards,
Tim
 
Interesting engine surprise

The body shop was done fitting the engine, so I brought it home to start cleaning it up and to figure out how it will all go together. As I was cleaning the block, I found it was stamped "K20Z1". This was a surprise as it came out of a 2002 RSX S-Type so it should have been a "K20A2". The K20Z1 is the engine in the 2005-06 RSX S-Type. The transmission was labelled "X2M5" which is the correct transmission for a 2002. I know the car ran fine before we took the engine out of it, so I am not really concerned. I just need to confirm which ECU and wiring harness I have, as they are different and I need the one for the A2. I am assuming that is what I have. The K20Z1 is actually a little better engine as it has better cams and makes 210 HP as opposed to the K20A2 which makes 200.

I contacted the original seller who was selling the car for his mother. He couldn't believe it had a Z1 in it. His mom had bought the car with 30K miles on it and the engine had never been swapped since she owned it. I can only imagine why a car with less than 30K miles had the engine swapped out for a newer one. :hmm:
 
The body shop was done fitting the engine, so I brought it home to start cleaning it up and to figure out how it will all go together. As I was cleaning the block, I found it was stamped "K20Z1". This was a surprise as it came out of a 2002 RSX S-Type so it should have been a "K20A2". The K20Z1 is the engine in the 2005-06 RSX S-Type. The transmission was labelled "X2M5" which is the correct transmission for a 2002. I know the car ran fine before we took the engine out of it, so I am not really concerned. I just need to confirm which ECU and wiring harness I have, as they are different and I need the one for the A2. I am assuming that is what I have. The K20Z1 is actually a little better engine as it has better cams and makes 210 HP as opposed to the K20A2 which makes 200.

I contacted the original seller who was selling the car for his mother. He couldn't believe it had a Z1 in it. His mom had bought the car with 30K miles on it and the engine had never been swapped since she owned it. I can only imagine why a car with less than 30K miles had the engine swapped out for a newer one. :hmm:

Wow. Impressive. I am not sure what all you will need(or won't need) as far as harness and bits outside of an ECU. But how nice is it to gain 10 more HP just cleaning a block? :dance:
 
k20z1

Hi Rodger

Great work,I put a K20Z1 in my swap from an 05 Acura RSX S and used the harness.I am using a Kpro ecu so I am not sure if you were

Rick
 
The mystery deepens

Well I did a little more exploring on the engine and noticed a bar code sticker on the timing chain cover. Unfortunately, the body shop had pressure washed the engine to get the grease and dirt off of it and pretty well wiped out the label. Fortunately, I had taken pictures of the engine after it first came out of the RSX and found a view that I could read the sticker....."K20A2" plus a bunch of numbers that I assume was the serial number of the engine. I also found that the timing chain cover was not original to this block as there was excess liquid gasket around it in a different color than what was on the oil pan, plus there was enough excess that it certainly did not come from the factory like that.

I can only surmise that the original owner had probably over revved the engine and trashed it, so had it replaced with a Z1 block. Not sure about the internals so I suppose it could be a Z1 or an A2 on the inside. If it was a totally new engine, why would they put the A2 timing chain cover on it? I was going to pull the valve/cam cover to repaint it so I can take a look at the cams. There must be a way to tell A2 from Z1 cams but will need to do some more research on that.
 
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