Lancia Scorpion #1733 -- new owner, project start

Been discussed before. Vintage cars like the exxe and the Scorpiacarlo with front brake vacuum booster bypassed will never "feel" like modern car brakes. During the era when these cars were designed, the standard wheel size was 13". This crimped the possible brake rotor diameter, in the case of Fiat and a LONG list of other cars designed with 13" wheels ~9" diameter brake disc were it. This coupled with no powered assist produced high brake pedal effort with acceptable stopping power. Solid brake disc do not have the thermal capacity of vented disc adding to the limitations of braking performance. On advantage side, these cars are a LOT lower weight than the modern car significantly reducing the demands on the brake system.

Bottom line, apply MORE pedal force to stop the car. This is the way it is, without extensive re-design of the entire brake system, this is much of what it will be.

The other taken for granted feature of modern car brakes is four wheel ABS. This takes the need to learn and develop the old fashioned skill of modulating the brakes to or at the point of brake lock up away. Modern car, slam on the brakes hard ABS takes over preventing wheel lock up and reducing stopping distances with modest pedal pressure even in wet slippery conditions.

As for the brakes on the series one Scorpiacarlo, that front vacuum brake booster was a really bad idea. The amount of power boost to the front brakes is dependent on engine vacuum, how much the brakes are used, how many pedal cycles the brakes are actuated and a long list of related factors. This is one of the prime reasons why bypassing that front brake booster is a good thing to do. This is what was done on the series two MonteCarlo and they increased the front rotor diameter to ~250mm made possible by applying 14" wheels. Regardless, know the system remains front brake lock up prone and intended as designed. Difference being, once the front vacuum brake booster is bypassed-deleted the point of front brake lock up is more predictable similar to an exxe or similar vintage cars without ABS.

For comparison, the 74' exxe with Fiat UnoTurbo front brakes and 38mm Fiat rear calipers will lock up the fronts before the rears if pushed, but the overall stopping ability is significantly improved and the vented rotors increased heat loading capacity. Compared to a Miata NA, the brake modified exxe has better brakes. Compared to a TR-6, that car has iffy brakes with power assist dependent on engine vacuum levels. To aid this, a electric brake booster vacuum pump from a Range Rover was added along with two vacuum reservoirs from VW and a vacuum level regulating system. It's an improvement, but no were near as good as the brakes on the modified exxe. The TR3 has non-assisted brakes with a single master cylinder. While the pedal effort is just as high as the exxe, it works OK due to the 10" front rotors and 9.5" drums with over sized brake cylinders and the lower weight of the TR3 makes this brake set up OK.
Compared to the 91' 9000T with first gen ATE's best ABS system, it is not as good (BTW, this is the same ATE system used by Ferrari and a long list of others that adopted ABS for their best cars early on). This ABS system does have good pedal feel and not over boosted like most modern cars. Compared to the 98' Saab NG900, the brakes feel way over assisted and in many ways more difficult to control for braking modulation. This Saab does have really powerful brakes with good thermal capacity but over assisted brake pedal feel

Bernice



RJ80 said:
Either I'm starting to get used to the brakes or they're functioning a little confidently. I still haven't tried to lock them up completely, but using more pedal pressure (deleted booster) they slow acceptably to get aroundd. They still don't feel anything like modern brakes, but don't feel significantly worse than my old 124 Spider or X1/9 brakes (though I never had complete confidence in them either, if I'm honest). The car does feel safe to drive, which I'm happy about as I continue to put on miles.
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@Rupunzell Haven't been able to lock up my front brakes yet, it's possible my pads are garbage. I think the ATE ABS system is the same one my Alfa Milano Verde left Arese with, but since parts are tough to come by most cars (including mine) revert to a non-ABS setup when the ATE system fails. Brake feel in that car isn't terribly impressive either, but it does seem to stop quickly enough with its factory Brembo calipers.
 
If the front brakes cannot be locked up, figure out why as there is a braking problem. On the exxe, lay on the brakes hard, the fronts will lock up. Problem could be wrong pads (too many decide to use "race" brake pads not knowing they don't produce much friction cold and only work good once they are hot enough. Absolutely the wrong brake pads for a road-street driven car), warped rotors, rotors with deep gouges, sticking caliper pistons or ... Regardless, if the fronts cannot be locked up fix it.

Did a quick check on the Alfa Milano, similar or same pump, very different ABS unit. Here is what the ABS unit looks like in the early Saab 9000. It was too expensive on many levels, but worked GOOD.
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In time ATE figured out how to make similar at lower cost. First try by ATE at cost reduction was done for VW. Ended up with pcb to wiring connector problems. Virtually all developed intermittent connections causing much grief. Problem is with the belief material displacement connectors are reliable, fact is they are among the most horrid connectors made. They can work sort of OK if all variables are controlled and known. If a variation of parts-materials involved occur, intermittently connections happen. Third try, ATE got it mostly good and this is the variant commonly found in cars today. ATE was not the only folks doing ABS.

Good that it is possible to revert to non ABS on the Milano, Saab 9000, not possible if the ABS unit does that 9000 is done if another good functional replacement cannot be had. ABS in the 9000 is integrated into a car in a long list of ways. With the TCS cars, the ABS talks to and is part of the engine ECU.

More on the Lancia brakes later as that is the next project for# 209. I'm expecting the entire hydraulic system to be junk with every seal, hose tubing, caliper-master piston and etc needing replacement. One of the first up, bypass the front brake vacuum booster. Should be easy fab of one hydraulic line. I'll remove the problem bits later. More on this in the not too distant future.

The interior had to be done fist as it was all scattered inside the interior untouched for decades. Knowing how difficult it is to get trim parts, losing any is not good at all.

Bernice


RJ80 said:
@Rupunzell Haven't been able to lock up my front brakes yet, it's possible my pads are garbage. I think the ATE ABS system is the same one my Alfa Milano Verde left Arese with, but since parts are tough to come by most cars (including mine) revert to a non-ABS setup when the ATE system fails. Brake feel in that car isn't terribly impressive either, but it does seem to stop quickly enough with its factory Brembo calipers.
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Rupunzell said:
If the front brakes cannot be locked up, figure out why as there is a braking problem. On the exxe, lay on the brakes hard, the fronts will lock up. Problem could be wrong pads (too many decide to use "race" brake pads not knowing they don't produce much friction cold and only work good once they are hot enough. Absolutely the wrong brake pads for a road-street driven car), warped rotors, rotors with deep gouges, sticking caliper pistons or ... Regardless, if the fronts cannot be locked up fix it.
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Yes, I will have to investigate further. Every component (excepting the hard lines, which are leak-free) is brand new, the pads are standard street pads from Autoricambi. It's possible that my master cylinder is not working properly, though it is new from MWB. Or I guess it's possible that I simply don't have the leg strength to lock the brakes.
 
Thanks guys... not cheap at $60-something each, but I'll buy two and replace on both sides. Any experiences with the repro aluminum handles? Might buy a set of those too.
 
$60 seems really cheap to me when you figure that there is no real economy of scale to make parts in such limited quantities as so few of these cars were ever made and even fewer still exist. I am surprised that these have been reproduced at all as you need to sell a lot of them at $60 each to pay for the tooling. My current Scorpion is my second, the first I sold about 30 years ago, when these cars were 30 years newer I doubt I could have purchased these. My first car I had leather to hold down the top as the straps that you can now get from TMH were out of production. There are many items that we simply could not get in the past the TMH now makes. I also at the time had a 1979 beta coupe, loved the car but little bits that would break we simply could not get when the car was rear ended rather then fixing it I gave up on it due to parts supply I had stripped it to bare metal, repainted it and built a hot 2.0 engine. At the time I worked at an authorized Fiat parts dealer and could order directly from Fiat which was of no help at all. I know TMH is in the middle of a move so shipments have been delayed. I have been waiting for some parts for nearly 2 months that they say are just now ready to ship. Some of the items frankly I ordered as I know some day in the next year or so I would need just so that I could help with TMH cash flow as I know that Covid 19 has hurt my manufacturing company badly and a lot of specialty companies have gone under and are going under due to Covid 19. The parts for my Fiat's I also order from a specialty shop, in the case of the Fiat parts often there are other places that they can be purchased for less money from but knowing how hard it is for a small business to keep in business especially with Covid 19 and knowing that with out them not only will a good parts supplier be gone but also a great source of information.
Jay
 
Good points @Hackerjay, and yes I'm very grateful that a few brave souls continue to supply parts for these cars. Especially parts like these which, as you say, have probably been out of production for decades by now.
 
@Hackerjay, I'm also amazed at what I was able to get from TMH and Midwest Bayless to get mine back into fighting shape. And yes, they're not getting rich having these things made for our cars, considering the rarity of them. They're actually selling a couple of items I produced for my own car since nobody made them and originals are nearly impossible to find.

One of my handles is cracked, but it still works, so I'm crossing my fingers. :)

tJ
 
I can't believe it's been almost a year since my last update. The Scorpion is back home after a look-over by the shop that rebuilt the engine. After 450 miles there was a fairly significant oil leak that was diagnosed as a warped cam box end plate that wasn't sealing properly. This was an aftermarket plate from '70s/'80s era Bayless that extended to cover the oil passage for the air pump that the car no longer has. It's been sealed up with a stock end plate and a soft plug -- no more leak. The twin DCNFs were also dialed-in and the car is really running strong. The best news is that I'm cleared to start using the full rev range. The Serra cams have fairly peaky power delivery and are coming in strong around 4.5k rpm, which is where I'd been shifting up before.

They also fabricated some custom mounts to safely install the set of Lotus Esprit seats I purchased. These seats have larger bolsters than stock, are trimmed in Connolly leather and have a more traditional seatback adjuster that won't explode like the ones on my stock seats did. The way they are mounted, the front of the seat bottom is a little higher than stock, but the rear is actually a little lower. Combined with the TMH double-bubble roof panel, there's a little more headroom now and the driving position is very good for my tastes.

I'm trying to make the most of the last few sunny weeks before the rainy fall weather hits the PNW and focusing on getting more miles on the car for now. After that, I'll get back to more sorting. Items on the laundry list are going through the still somewhat weak-feeling brake system, installing a new choke cable (the current one only activates the cold start circuit on one of the two carbs), either purchasing or designing a sealed airbox for the carbs, and re-engineering the throttle linkage on the carbs. Currently, the force needed to move the throttle off the closed position is excessive, and lightens up through the travel. That makes throttle modulation more tricky than it should be off the line and around town.

I'm also still trying to decide what to do on paint. It would be nice to try to get the car painted over the wet and cold winter months, so I need to start talking to local shops. I think with the amount of attention that's been spent on the rest of the car at this point, it really deserves a decent quality respray. Question is, to color change or not. I like the idea of going with a cool period shade of green or blue, but it may be less expensive and easier to stick with black as a primary color and maybe add some red to it. A two-tone red/black Ferrari Boxer-style scheme is something I'm considering.

I've been thinking that I might want the car sitting a little higher, the X1/9-spec KYBs and Vick sport springs have the car riding about two inches lower than stock. But after putting another 50 miles on the car yesterday on both backroads and highway, I really like the way it rides. It's not at all harsh, quite the contrary it just sucks up bumps, especially at higher speed, but is still taut and composed through dips and corners. The Scorpion's extra couple hundred pounds over the X1/9 probably makes this strut/spring combo feel a little more compliant than it does on an X.

More as the progress continues...
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77scorpion said:
Can you tell me about your wheel set up? Sizes? Spacers??
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Sure! The wheels are Ronal A1 replicas produced by Maxilite to German TUV safety standards. Mr. Fiat is one of the suppliers, but I purchased on closeout from Centerline Alfa at a terrific discount.

They are 15x7 with ET25 offset and the tires are Dunlop Direzza DZ102 195/50 front, 205/50 rear. Because I'm running X1/9 struts, a 15mm spacer is needed up to keep the front tires' inner sidewalls from rubbing against the spring perch. There are zero fitment issues in the rear. I don't think the rubbing would be an issue with stock Scorpion struts and certainly not with any of the skinny-spring coilovers produced by our established vendors. I actually like the spacers anyway, since they help fill out the front wheel arches.
 
Wow, your car is really coming along. It looks like a Scorpion twin to my Montecarlo.
I agree with you about the color, I think the metallic green or a Lamborghini metallic orange would look great with your color interior. These cars look better in bright colors, with our cars painted black, you lose a lot of the subtle styling Kues and Vents. I think it would be worth the expense in the long run. But I am not the one paying the paint shop.
 
Quick stream-of-consciousness update on #1733: I took the Scorpion out for a little drive yesterday and decided that at 511 miles since the rebuild, it was time to dump the break-in oil. Went with Motul Classic Eighties semi-synthetic in 10W/40 for the refill. This oil has ZDDP additive to protect the cams and comes in 2-quart cans. The profile of the car on the can even looks quite a bit like a Scorpion.

Meanwhile, I'm still agonizing over a few things. The brakes are still quite spongy and not as strong as they should be. I will have to get all four wheels up in the air again and try bleeding once more before I move on to other possibilities. I'm hopeful that there is some trapped air in the lines which has shifted to a position where it can be bled out. If the brakes are up to snuff after re-bleeding, I'll have to decide whether to install my Willwood kit or not.

The work continues, but it's fun to have a car that I can use and enjoy while I finish up the last project items.

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I would say: keep it black for awhile. Drive it. Enjoy it. Then, in a few years, when everything is sorted out and you really figure what color you want, then it would be the right time. Now your black car is already gorgeous even if there are some flaws in the paint. Make it a driver, then later a trailer queen if that's what you want!
 
Interesting list of thing to do. I would think the brakes are most important to solve.
As you know my Montecarlo is black. Not my first choice. As a very anal person, I am in a constant state of cleaning.
There is a reason black paint is referred to has 20 second high. Referring to the amount of time the car stays clean after you clean it.
As far as your paint conundrum. I just had my bumpers repainted, there were some cracks and chips. After 30 years.
I think your idea of obtaining some Euro bumpers, and then painting the and some area’s on the front of the car. Is sensible.
Black should be fairly easy to match. I would also suggest , you have a quart left over. Incase you decide to keep it black. If not then a metallic orange would be cool.
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Black cars seemed to fall into my lap for a time, but on cars where it wasn't my favorite color. The Scorpion is one, my old Alfa Milano Verde was another. Preferred red for both when I was searching, but black is what fell into my hands. Black does help make the exterior of the Scorpion a little more uniform with all the stock black trim, which is nice. Black with some red accents looks more interesting.

An orangy red like Ferrari's Rosso Dino shade or the Pininfarina Red used on the 037 Stradale are probably my favorite colors, but red seems a little overdone. The two-tone Boxer style paint is also interesting, with black on the lower panels. I also like some of the '70s pastel shades of blue and green. The orange metallic shades get a little too close to modern Lamborghinis and BMW M cars for me.

Given the amount of damp weather we have in the PNW, I'd like to protect where the paint has deteriorated the most significantly, mainly around the windshield frame and the front trunklid. Paying a grand to sand, prep and respray those trouble areas in black may be the right call for now. That will allow me to wash the car with water and take a chance on getting caught out in the rain.
 
In the print and digital pages of Sports Car Market magazine's February 2022 issue:
www.sportscarmarket.com

Stung by a Scorpion - Sports Car Market

With regard to cars, I’m a sucker for two things: Italian sports cars and a perceived good deal. I scraped my knuckles on Fiat X1/9s, 124s and 850s. I’ve
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