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Lancia Scorpion #1733 -- new owner, project start

Discussion in 'X1/20 Forum' started by RJ80, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    Small update, pulled a cam end cover and found the cams in this car are marked Serra B3 BM. Temps are back in the 70s in Los Angeles, so I'll be getting the car up in the air this week to investigate the no-start issue, starting with grounds.

    In the meantime, I've bought a few things for the car including a set of Koni shocks and a set of Cromodora CD30s. I'll probably get a set of the reissued Pirelli Cinturato CN36 tires in 185/70R13, which was the tire that was specced for early European Montes. But all of this is getting way ahead of the priorities of getting the car running and roadworthy. More later this week...
     
  2. Chad C.

    Chad C. Low Mileage

    Location:
    Eugene, Oregon
    Glad you're back on it. I've not heard of a cam marked Serra before, and no Google results for it either. Cool mystery there. I'm jealous of your Koni's and wheels! They're a good indication of the level you're looking at taking this car to, my hat's off to you.

    Have you tried turning the motor by hand? Try pushing it/spinning the wheels while it's in fifth gear, as spinning the cam or crank with a wrench is likely to skip a tooth or two on the belt. I did that years ago & really angered myself...

    When you have a look at your carbs, I'd be interested in knowing the sizes of the jets/guts that are in there. I just received a package from Pierce Manifolds that contains the general consensus for such things, I look forward to getting them in place.

    Glad you're feeling better, keep at it & post more pics!
     
    RJ80 likes this.
  3. Daniel Forest

    Daniel Forest Daily Driver

    Location:
    Montreal,Canada
    Serra autotechnica, I think they were in Valhalha, NY. 70's and 80's. They were selling hi perf parts for X1/9 and probably some other italian cars. I believe I still got an advertising of them somewhere in my old catalogs. But I'm telling you all this by memory. I maybe out of my mind...

    I just finished repairing Wheel studs and nuts on my Volvo. I had this strange idea tonight (at 9 pm) to install my winter tires (I'm in Qu├ębec, snow is coming soon) and to teach my 15 years old kid of to do it. He cross-threaded 5 nuts and forgot to torque 4 of the nuts... on the same Wheel. We did 1/4 mile before the Wheel went berzerk. Walk back home to pick up the Tools, walk back to the cars to reinstall a few nuts in the dark, but only 3 on 5 were still working. Drove slowly back home. I got a lot of 12x1.25 and 12x1.75 spares but no 12 x1.5. So I spend all the remaining of the evening with my tap and die kit to redo all the threads... BTW, weather is Under the freezing point, there was some ice forming on the car when I finished...
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
    RJ80 and kmead like this.
  4. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    I did a little Googling on Serra and found some stuff in an Alfa forum. See below for the B3 in the second column in the picture:

    serra.jpg

    and this PDF of a brochure:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
    RJ80 likes this.
  5. Jeff Stich

    Jeff Stich True Classic

    Location:
    Norco, CA
    H
    Here are the specs for your Serra B3 cams (L/C = Lobe Center):

    serracamspecsheet2.JPG
     
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  6. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    Thanks to Jeff and others for the cam specs! Anyone know if Serra's cams were regrinds or fresh stock?

    Chad: Yep, my pan is to take the plugs out, put the car in fifth and roll it just to make sure the engine is rotating freely. Thanks for the tip. Hoping to try tonight.
     
    motoTrooper likes this.
  7. Daniel Forest

    Daniel Forest Daily Driver

    Location:
    Montreal,Canada
    At that time, blanks were easily available. I doubt it could be a regrind.
     
  8. dllubin

    dllubin Daily Driver

    It visited Joe Serra several times and I recall him putting down one of his competitors for selling regrinds, so hopefully he was not doing the same. I've got one of his cams in my X1/9 and it was made with a CWC billet. It uses shims only slightly thicker than stock cams (it has more lift) so I'm sure it is not a regrind. I also bought a pair of 40 DCNFs, Sprint manifold, and a set of his headers (which I am coincidently painting today). I know he sold quite a few packages like that so you might check and see if you have one of his headers or intake manifolds (photos below): Serra Exhaust.jpg

    Serra Induction.jpg
     
  9. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    @dllubin Thanks for the brochure scans and info! Love the airbox on the Scorpion DNCF setup -- mine just has the standard rectangular chrome filters. They are mounted on an Alquati intake.

    I think you're right about the header -- in fact, this solves my exhaust dilemma. I was always curious which system I had since it exits to the right side of the car and most others (CNC, Guy Croft) seem to exit left. I think I've got a Serra system, although there are still a few small differences. The junction where the pipes go four into one looks a little different as does the flange where the headers attach to the cylinder head. Maybe the exhaust in the ad is a prototype and I have a production version with a few small changes. Photos attached. [​IMG]

    exhaust-xweb.jpg exhaust-xweb2.jpg
     
  10. motoTrooper

    motoTrooper True Classic

    Is your engine turning free yet?
     
  11. dllubin

    dllubin Daily Driver

    It is quite possible that there were differences as time went on. It was a small operation and depending on whether he was building them in house, fabbing them outside, or sourcing from another manufacturer, it could easily change over time. I should probably compare my headers to the ones in the brochure photo and see how well they match. It looks like the Scorpion exhaust uses the same muffler as mine. According to Joe, it was the exact same part as used in a turbo Corvair.
     
  12. Chad C.

    Chad C. Low Mileage

    Location:
    Eugene, Oregon
    Leave it to the forum to quickly solve the mystery of Serra cams, complete with specs!

    Now that I'm not at work, I found this cool info & scans about Serra and others:


    https://hitthewave.wordpress.com/tag/fiat-tuning/


    I've been a Fiat/lancia enthusiast for 15 years, and I'm still learning new things, gotta love it.


    Keep at it RJ80, looking forward to your updates.
     
  13. dllubin

    dllubin Daily Driver

    Thanks for the URL. Browsing through it reminded me of the box full of old Serra and FAZA literature I recently located in my basement. One of these days I should go through it and scan the interesting stuff.
     
  14. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    Well, I pulled the plugs and tried pushing the car in what I think is 5th gear (clutch slave is blown and the PO made some kind of short shift modification, so gears aren't quite as well defined as I'm guessing they are stock). Car doesn't want to roll, but it could also be that I'm pretty weak. I can roll the car in neutral alright though I think the brakes are dragging a little, how much more difficult should rolling the car in 5th with the plugs out be?

    Maybe some Marvel Mystery Oil down the plug holes is my next move? I'd have to pick some up tomorrow.
     
  15. Rod Midkiff

    Rod Midkiff True Classic

    Location:
    Eugene, OR
    oil down the spark plug can't hurt anything (just don't reinstall the plugs and then use the starter). In 5th gear, you should be able to turn the motor over by pushing the car. (when I changed the alt belt on my X I left it in 3 or 4 and pushed the car forward to roll the belt on the pully)

    If you can push it in neutral then can't when in gear it does indeed sound like the motor might be locked up. (can you get it to move at all pushing/pulling with it in gear) If so lot's of oil down the holes and just keep working it back and forth maybe you can get it to roll over again. I have also heard of people using other stuff to help penetrate any rust, etc, etc.
     
  16. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    We'll see how it goes. I'll try to get the engine loosened up over the few weeks with daily doses of rocking and oiling. Also need to make sure there's nothing else (locked up starter?) that is the cause. Will update here if it ever gives.
     
  17. BEEK

    BEEK Daily Driver

    Location:
    Clermont Fl
    I did not want to be the one to lay out this possibility and most likely outcome. If the engine will not turn in gear, or by hand using a ratchet and socket on the end of the crank. The problem will not be cured by putting oil in the cylinders and "freeing up the engine". If the engine needs oil in the cylinders to make it turn again the damage is already done. The cylinder bores must be perfectly smooth to seal the rings to make compression. Secondly the rings must be free on the pistons to seal to the cylinder walls. If there is enough rust in the cylinders to keep the engine from turning, there is absolutely no way this engine will run again properly. My best suggestion is to either find a bore scope and see it for yourself, or just pull the head.
     
  18. Rod Midkiff

    Rod Midkiff True Classic

    Location:
    Eugene, OR
    I have seen people able to make a rusted motor running again. But Yes to be best it will need some work depending on how bad and where the bind up is. But trying to free it up should not hurt anything more then it is. And if it does free up it will make taking it apart a lot simpler.
     
  19. Chad C.

    Chad C. Low Mileage

    Location:
    Eugene, Oregon
    I'm with Rod there, can't hurt to try. You might also have a look at the AC equipment to see if it's bound up & preventing rotation. Not sure if it's possible on these cars as mine was mostly removed when I got it.


    Rod, I wanna come meet you & check out your cars. Maybe show off my Scorpion. Reply me in the Messages : )
     
  20. RJ80

    RJ80 Daily Driver

    Guys, I agree. Obviously if the problem actually is that the cylinder bores are rusted, the engine needs to be rebuilt. From what I can see just peeking into the bores, I don't see any rust -- just a little carbon on the piston domes. Very strange, as the car was obviously kept garaged most of the time and the engine was complete and assembled when I bought the car so there wasn't really any opportunity for water intrusion. I checked the dipstick when buying the car (and several times after) and while the oil looks like its due for a change, the level is perfectly full and there are no indications of metal shavings on the dipstick. It's just all very strange.

    Chad, I'll have to look and see if any of the factory AC stuff is still there. I'm guessing I'll find it on the front (timing belt side) of the engine, underneath?

    The next thing I need to check is that the starter isn't somehow stuck in an engaged position and locking the flywheel. Not sure if there's a transmission issue that could cause this too... the clutch slave is blown, so I don't have a functional clutch pedal.

    Decisions will have to be made if the car does need an engine rebuild. While I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to building up a hot Scorpion engine with high compression pistons and the like, it wasn't really in the plan. Would probably stick with the 1.8 if the block isn't damaged -- I never enjoyed how coarse and low-revving my 2.0-liter 124 Spider was.
     

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