motoTrooper
True Classic
Hope it frees up for you, but if you gotta go bigger titanium rods and forged pistons could keep you in rev city...
Lancia Scorpion #1733 -- new owner, project start
- Thread starter RJ80
- Start date
darwoodious
Darin Nelson
It's probably not your daily driver so do it right. Nothing more satisfying than having your engine out, checking all the bits, repairing as needed (maybe a performance mod here/there).
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
RJ80
True Classic
All good advice, thanks everyone. As the initial disappointment of not having a ready-to-go engine wears off, I'm thinking of this as a slightly longer-term project, most likely.
I finally got underneath the car tonight and had a poke around. The good news is sighting down the underside, the car really does seem to be as rust-free as I thought when I bought it. The undercarriage looks very, very good and consistent with a car that spent its life garaged in Southern California. Even most of the original paint is on most of the rear suspension components and there's very little surface corrosion to be found.
There was some corrosion around the large, braided ground strap but I think we've moved on from bad grounds as a likely cause for the engine not turning. I'll clean it up, but it's a secondary issue right now. Meanwhile, I'm thinking about snipping the ancillary belts to see if the no-turn issue might be a frozen water pump or air conditioning compressor.
Also, what's that silver component with one hose going into it in the attached photos? It's mounted where the stock air cleaner should be, I think, and finned (to dissipate heat?). The second photo does a bad job of showing that the hose runs to a component I can see on the back side of the engine, under the intake manifold. I'm guessing this is a previous owner's modification. Excuse all the grossness around the transmission, that's from the slave cylinder that blew a while before I bought the car.
I finally got underneath the car tonight and had a poke around. The good news is sighting down the underside, the car really does seem to be as rust-free as I thought when I bought it. The undercarriage looks very, very good and consistent with a car that spent its life garaged in Southern California. Even most of the original paint is on most of the rear suspension components and there's very little surface corrosion to be found.
There was some corrosion around the large, braided ground strap but I think we've moved on from bad grounds as a likely cause for the engine not turning. I'll clean it up, but it's a secondary issue right now. Meanwhile, I'm thinking about snipping the ancillary belts to see if the no-turn issue might be a frozen water pump or air conditioning compressor.
Also, what's that silver component with one hose going into it in the attached photos? It's mounted where the stock air cleaner should be, I think, and finned (to dissipate heat?). The second photo does a bad job of showing that the hose runs to a component I can see on the back side of the engine, under the intake manifold. I'm guessing this is a previous owner's modification. Excuse all the grossness around the transmission, that's from the slave cylinder that blew a while before I bought the car.
BEEK
True Classic
it is a modification of the crank case breather. Very interesting
RJ80
True Classic
Sooo... what does it do? And should there be another line coming out of it? Is the part itself stock?
RJ80
True Classic
Interesting, thanks Karl. Next chance I get (hopefully this week), I'm going to remove all the ancillary belts (keeping the timing belt intact) and see if that's my no-rotation issue. If that doesn't solve things, I guess I need to drain the coolant, remove the head and order Guy Croft's new twin-cam manual.
RJ80
True Classic
Well, I clipped the rather large, grooved AC belt and I'm still not getting any movement. I poured the same amount of Marvel Mystery Oil down each of the bores and 30 minutes later I stuck a long ratchet extension down to each piston top and pulled it back up. There was just a trace amount of wet oil on the very bottom of the extension from cylinders 1-3. When I pulled the extension out of #4, it came out dripping and traced up the wall of the extension about a quarter-inch. I hooked the battery back up to see if it might turn over with the spark plugs out, but got the the same old single click from the starter and no movement.
I think I'm very nearly ready to just pull the head off, suspecting a stuck #4 piston. Maybe it's the starter stuck in the engaged position or possibly a frozen water pump, but do either sound very likely? What would you guys do next?
I think I'm very nearly ready to just pull the head off, suspecting a stuck #4 piston. Maybe it's the starter stuck in the engaged position or possibly a frozen water pump, but do either sound very likely? What would you guys do next?
DanielForest
True Classic
Well, I would probably forget my initial plan and start removing the engine to do a nice rebuild, with or without performance goodies, depending on your interest and wallet. Last time I did it on my X1/9, it was a winter projet. This time, I'm on it since 2000. Life was in my way... But you have a nice project in your hand.
Even if you could turn the engine, I doubt it would run nicely. So don't waste your time. You had hope of a runner. It isn't. That's all.
Even if you could turn the engine, I doubt it would run nicely. So don't waste your time. You had hope of a runner. It isn't. That's all.
RJ80
True Classic
I'm ready to throw in the towel on this engine being workable without a rebuild. The MMO is still pooled in cylinder #4 and not in the other cylinders. I removed the belly pan today and got the starter half-removed (mounting bolts are all out, just need to finagle it out of the engine bay somehow). My last hope was that the starter had possibly frozen, locking the flywheel in place. With the starter pulled most of the way out of the bell housing, the engine still won't turn so I guess it's time to pull the engine.
I've rebuilt exactly one engine before -- a Briggs and Stratton in my junior high school small engine repair class in, oh, 1993 or so. Have always wanted to rebuild an actual automotive engine, so here we go. I think I'll keep the 1.8 block assuming I can get the pistons removed without damaging the bores too badly and run new high compression pistons. Looks like the commonly available pistons are the 8mm dome variety which I've been told aren't as ideal as the Euro-spec 1.8 pistons with a smaller dome. Probably a good time to put Guy Croft's new twin-cam guide on my Christmas wish list. I figure a goal of 120 hp should be fairly easily reachable and make a nice little car. Hoping to keep the build under $4k -- I'll rebuild and re-use my 42 DCNFs and probably re-use the Serra cams and header.
I've rebuilt exactly one engine before -- a Briggs and Stratton in my junior high school small engine repair class in, oh, 1993 or so. Have always wanted to rebuild an actual automotive engine, so here we go. I think I'll keep the 1.8 block assuming I can get the pistons removed without damaging the bores too badly and run new high compression pistons. Looks like the commonly available pistons are the 8mm dome variety which I've been told aren't as ideal as the Euro-spec 1.8 pistons with a smaller dome. Probably a good time to put Guy Croft's new twin-cam guide on my Christmas wish list. I figure a goal of 120 hp should be fairly easily reachable and make a nice little car. Hoping to keep the build under $4k -- I'll rebuild and re-use my 42 DCNFs and probably re-use the Serra cams and header.
RJ80
True Classic
Small update: I've been working with the seller since the engine was represented as being healthy. We've agreed on a partial refund (about 20% of the purchase price, which will help me purchase bits for the inevitable engine rebuild. AutoRicambi has a 10% off sale for the holidays, so I just picked up a set of their 4mm dome (9.8:1 CR) high-compression pistons in the 0.4 oversize. So it begins...
Still want to pull the head off before I remove the block/transmission just to make sure this isn't a stuck valve or other weirdness in the top end, hopefully this weekend.
Still want to pull the head off before I remove the block/transmission just to make sure this isn't a stuck valve or other weirdness in the top end, hopefully this weekend.
motoTrooper
True Classic
Happy for you that the seller is cooperating about the car. Sending some good mojo that any further complications will be easily apparent and simple to rectify (and cheap!).
RJ80
True Classic
Christmas came a few days early for the Scorpion. Just got this Roger Grantham-built, two-piece, double-bubble top in the mail (miraculously it arrived from the seller without damage). It's never been installed and will need a few little cosmetic fiberglass touch-ups before paint, but I'm happy to have one secured. No, it's not a priority, but you've got to grab these things when they come available! This weekend through New Year's Day is all vacation for me, so I should get some time around holiday happenings to tear into the engine and figure out what's gone wrong. When I met the seller so he could give me the aforementioned refund, he again vowed that the engine was turning under his care. Beginning to wonder if the old belt just slipped at some point when he was trying to get it running and there's now some mechanical interference. More to come...
RJ80
True Classic
Well, the day everyone's been waiting for is here. Check out the attached photos and you'll see what I found when I pulled the head off. The red liquid in cylinders #3 and #4 is Marvel Mystery Oil that had been soaking in there for several weeks. What on earth would cause damage like this? It's not like the engine was left outside disassembled. And the coolant that I drained from the block wasn't oily at all. Looks like this was a nice engine at some point -- those appear to be small-dome, high compression pistons, no? Similar to the 9.8:1 pistons I bought from AutoRicambi, in fact.
What odds would you folks give of this block being saved, given that #4 is still solidly stuck? I get zero movement on the crank nut and don't want to try any harder for fear of shearing it off.
What odds would you folks give of this block being saved, given that #4 is still solidly stuck? I get zero movement on the crank nut and don't want to try any harder for fear of shearing it off.
motoTrooper
True Classic
It looks like water came in through the intake valve on #4. Looks weirdly intentional given the state of the other cylinders.
RJ80
True Classic
The head gasket looked old, but pretty solid, I can snap a photo of that tomorrow if anyone's interested. It was still in a single piece and didn't appear to have failed anywhere. The coolant that came out when I drained the block was free of oil, too. I'll start inspecting the head tomorrow, didn't see anything obvious today.
Really, really strange...
I tapped on the #4 piston with a block of wood and a small sledge -- no movement but hoping it created enough of a shock to allow some MMO to start seeping past the rings. Meanwhile, the corrosion has me worried enough that I just bought a supposedly NOS short block for about four-hundred bucks that I'd been eyeing on eBay the last few weeks. Figure I'll strip it down when it arrives and send it to the machine shop (along with my existing head) for a once-over and a boring to accept my previously purchased 0.4-oversize pistons. Not only will that give me a fresh block, but also a brand new crank, rods and oil pump to use in the build. Plus, I can start making progress on the getting the new engine built before I've even got the old one out yet.
Really, really strange...
I tapped on the #4 piston with a block of wood and a small sledge -- no movement but hoping it created enough of a shock to allow some MMO to start seeping past the rings. Meanwhile, the corrosion has me worried enough that I just bought a supposedly NOS short block for about four-hundred bucks that I'd been eyeing on eBay the last few weeks. Figure I'll strip it down when it arrives and send it to the machine shop (along with my existing head) for a once-over and a boring to accept my previously purchased 0.4-oversize pistons. Not only will that give me a fresh block, but also a brand new crank, rods and oil pump to use in the build. Plus, I can start making progress on the getting the new engine built before I've even got the old one out yet.
darwoodious
Darin Nelson
Hope it frees up for you, but if you gotta go bigger titanium rods and forged pistons could keep you in rev city...
I smell an opportunity to build a sweet engine with titanium/forged bits!
No matter what you do, looks like you're having fun. I *so* want a Scorpion but no garage space!