Lancia scorpion #632

Lturner7

Lturner7

Daily Driver
Ay all, I've got scorpion #632 and I'm considering doing a k swap, I know it's been done before but I'm hoping to be pointed in the right direction. It currently has the stock engine with the European high compression pistons, I'm in the process of a full restoration in the hopes of daily driving it. Thanks in advance!

Most photos of the car since the day I bought it, will be updated from time to time

Scorpion - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com
 
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Welcome!

I know it has been discussed before, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it. How about some pictures of your car?
 
Pete Whitstone said:
Welcome!

I know it has been discussed before, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing it. How about some pictures of your car?
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Here is one:

KSwap 037

Also Julian Pham has one in Texas.
52BE1197-548D-4B49-902D-EFA844031A34.jpeg
 
I would go with a Alfa Romeo 164 S 3.0 V6 and Trans. The Lancia was originally designed for a V6.
I think that would fit the character of the car. My Montecarlo has a 2.0 with FI from a 1982 Beta Coupe. It was rebuilt with hot 40/80 cams and 9:0:1 compression, Cam mounted Marelli Distributor, Weber big bore throttle body,
Modified Mustang SVO air meter, prima-flow header. It all amounts to 135BPH. No we’re near the over 200 BPH you are talking about though.
7FB78778-C541-4F38-8495-8E0405AD8E36.jpeg
 
I've thought about doing just that, however finding one of those here is nearly impossible, also I intend to daily drive this car so I'd like something very reliable. I'm open to any options and looking into anything out there, to build this engine properly I figure I'd be into it a little over 8k maybe even more. Originally I wanted to do a dual carb, larger cams, high compression, essentially following guy crofts book, it seems I could go that way for the same price as a swap.
 
The Alfa Busso V6 was a good choice years ago but parts for those are drying up fast so not a good choice now.

The Honda K20 has lots of potential and support and the Bayless kit to get you started. I don't like Hondas much even though had a factory ride with them when I was racing and we are doing a Honda engine into BMW driftcar currently at the shop (We've done some wild ones). Probably can't get the stereotypical Honda ricer tuner impression out of my head and exhaust note does nothing for me.

If I were swapping with N American available budget performance choices, I'd be taking measurements for a boosted Subaru EJ swap. Have seen them in rear engine VWs so perhaps there is a transaxle that would match up the Scorpion axle location with or without hacking up the rear exhaust shelf. Lots of wreaked WRXs to find a cheap donor including all the wiring harnesses easier than getting a K20.
Same basic engine has been in N America 20 years with many interchangeable bits. 2 liter for less risk of head gasket failure of the 2.5 but even then rebuilds are simple. Boxer low center of gravity. Perhaps top mounted intercooler will still fit under the engine compartment lid. Lots of aftermarket performance parts available and will be for long time. Rally connection between Lancia & Subaru. And the Subaru exhaust rumble.
 
NigelProdrive said:
The Alfa Busso V6 was a good choice years ago but parts for those are drying up fast so not a good choice now.

The Honda K20 has lots of potential and support and the Bayless kit to get you started. I don't like Hondas much even though had a factory ride with them when I was racing and we are doing a Honda engine into BMW driftcar currently at the shop (We've done some wild ones). Probably can't get the stereotypical Honda ricer tuner impression out of my head and exhaust note does nothing for me.

If I were swapping with N American available budget performance choices, I'd be taking measurements for a boosted Subaru EJ swap. Have seen them in rear engine VWs so perhaps there is a transaxle that would match up the Scorpion axle location with or without hacking up the rear exhaust shelf. Lots of wreaked WRXs to find a cheap donor including all the wiring harnesses easier than getting a K20.
Same basic engine has been in N America 20 years with many interchangeable bits. 2 liter for less risk of head gasket failure of the 2.5 but even then rebuilds are simple. Boxer low center of gravity. Perhaps top mounted intercooler will still fit under the engine compartment lid. Lots of aftermarket performance parts available and will be for long time. Rally connection between Lancia & Subaru. And the Subaru exhaust rumble.
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Yeah I really don't typically like Honda heads who put fart can exhausts on everything they sound bad and typically their owners are annoying. I have actually been thinking of an ej precisely for the lower center of gravity, I've not been a fan of boxer engines typically but where I live those engines are a dime a dozen so parts would be no issue at all. Thanks for your input! Time to keep the research and problem solving going
 
Sounds like a really fun project and any modern four-cylinder engine is going to be a dramatic improvement over the 50-year-old Fiat twin cam, great as those engines are.

However, as someone who has spent way too much money refurbishing a Scorpion (even with the original engine), I'd suggest you double or triple whatever you think the project will cost. That will be closer to reality. Also realize, custom-fitting a more modern engine won't necessarily make it a trouble-free daily driver. There's still plenty to go wrong and any Scorpion is still a 40+ year-old car.

I would be tempted to do a budget rebuild of the original engine -- perhaps with higher compression pistons, cams and a larger single carb. Keep the car for sunny days and windy roads. Finish the project on a relaxed schedule.

Then take the $20k-30k you'll probably end up spending on the resto-mod project when it's all said and done and buy a good Porsche 987 Boxster/Cayman, C5 Corvette, Subaru/Toyota BRZ/FRS, etc to daily drive.

Just my two cents...
 
RJ80 said:
Sounds like a really fun project and any modern four-cylinder engine is going to be a dramatic improvement over the 50-year-old Fiat twin cam, great as those engines are.

However, as someone who has spent way too much money refurbishing a Scorpion (even with the original engine), I'd suggest you double or triple whatever you think the project will cost. That will be closer to reality. Also realize, custom-fitting a more modern engine won't necessarily make it a trouble-free daily driver. There's still plenty to go wrong and any Scorpion is still a 40+ year-old car.

I would be tempted to do a budget rebuild of the original engine -- perhaps with higher compression pistons, cams and a larger single carb. Keep the car for sunny days and windy roads. Finish the project on a relaxed schedule.

Then take the $20k-30k you'll probably end up spending on the resto-mod project when it's all said and done and buy a good Porsche 987 Boxster/Cayman, C5 Corvette, Subaru/Toyota BRZ/FRS, etc to daily drive.

Just my two cents...
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I appreciate your two cents, I planned on spending around 16k on the car, I can do all the bodywork/paint prep and painting. Does this number seem unrealistic? Its a fairly complete car so far all I've noticed that is missing is the bulk head cover. I can do just about everything on it but the wiring, the engine currently has high compression pistons already but I think it needs to be gone through again, all the channels are dirty and rusted. I currently daily a 76 chevy luv so I'm accustomed to dealing with old car issues popping up from time to time. I'm in no rush to finish it and I'd like as much of it as possible to be done right the first time, which always takes more time and money up front. But I feel as though it's worth it for something as intresting as this car is. I do plan on keeping and building the original twin cam just for a little something extra to do with any spare time I find as well as using it to teach other about engine building since all I really know about is how to work on old carbureted engines.
 
RJ80 said:
However, as someone who has spent way too much money refurbishing a Scorpion (even with the original engine), I'd suggest you double or triple whatever you think the project will cost. That will be closer to reality. Also realize, custom-fitting a more modern engine won't necessarily make it a trouble-free daily driver. There's still plenty to go wrong and any Scorpion is still a 40+ year-old car.
Click to expand...

There's that end of it, and then there's the insurance/replaceability problem. Do you really want to sink $16k (or much more) and thousands of hours into a vehicle, only to have it destroyed by some idiot distracted driver a week after you finish it? Not that that couldn't happen if it was just a weekend fun machine, but if you DD it, you are increasing those odds by a lot. Especially in a small vehicle in a world of SUVs/trucks, and "oh, I didn't see you down there".

Insurance won't be much help. They will look up book value on a 45 year old car and give you pennies. If you get insurance designed for classic cars that will help with that, but it will most likely come with restrictions. And if it's the other drivers fault, you're still at the mercy of THEIR insurance.

Sorry to be a bummer, but as someone who has been down this road, these are things you have to think about before you DD a vehicle like this.
 
I think a lot will depend on how much you can do yourself. Obviously, doing the bodywork yourself will save a big chunk of change. I did relatively little of the work on my car (just suspension and brakes, mostly) and labor rates at local specialty shops are $150/hr plus, so things got expensive quickly.

Sounds like your car has been sitting a while, so it's likely the hydraulic and cooling systems will need total rebuilds, including many new parts (possibly even the steel coolant tubes running under the car). If the engine passages are rusty, you're probably better off completely stripping the engine, having a machine shop look at it and doing a full rebuild. You don't want chunks of crud or corrosion screwing things up later. You should be able to re-use most of the major components if they're in good shape. My engine was about $8k in labor (including balancing at the machine shop) and another grand or two in parts, but I already had all the performance bits -- carbs, cams and exhaust.

The "while you're in there" bits add up fast: your fuel tank is probably dirty and corroded, so it should be relined. Ceramic coating the exhaust really helps keep engine bay temps down. A gear reduction starter works far better than stock. You may want to upgrade the braking system. Struts are hard to come by for these cars, Monte Hospital wants $800+ per set (though X1/9 units will work in a pinch). Adjustable coil-overs are even more. Motor mounts and cooling system hoses are Monte Hospital exclusive and pricey. It can be a slippery slope.

The Monte Hospital is in the U.K. (add extra shipping costs), and even they don't have everything. https://dev.montehospital.com/
 
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Pete Whitstone said:
There's that end of it, and then there's the insurance/replaceability problem. Do you really want to sink $16k (or much more) and thousands of hours into a vehicle, only to have it destroyed by some idiot distracted driver a week after you finish it? Not that that couldn't happen if it was just a weekend fun machine, but if you DD it, you are increasing those odds by a lot. Especially in a small vehicle in a world of SUVs/trucks, and "oh, I didn't see you down there".

Insurance won't be much help. They will look up book value on a 45 year old car and give you pennies. If you get insurance designed for classic cars that will help with that, but it will most likely come with restrictions. And if it's the other drivers fault, you're still at the mercy of THEIR insurance.

Sorry to be a bummer, but as someone who has been down this road, these are things you have to think about before you DD a vehicle like this.
Click to expand...
That makes a lot of sense, I do have classic car insurance but obviously that's no guarantee of them being fair if an accident was to happen. Looks like mostly reliable weekend fun machine may be the best way to go. It's not a bummer at all its good to look at things realistically and logically, I daily the luv but it's not worth near as much and never will be.
 
RJ80 said:
I think a lot will depend on how much you can do yourself. Obviously, doing the bodywork yourself will save a big chunk of change. I did relatively little of the work on my car (just suspension and brakes, mostly) and labor rates at local specialty shops are $150/hr plus, so things got expensive quickly.

Sounds like your car has been sitting a while, so it's likely the hydraulic and cooling systems will need total rebuilds, including many new parts (possibly even the steel coolant tubes running under the car). If the engine passages are rusty, you're probably better off completely stripping the engine, having a machine shop look at it and doing a full rebuild. You don't want chunks of crud or corrosion screwing things up later. You should be able to re-use most of the major components if they're in good shape. My engine was about $8k in labor (including balancing at the machine shop) and another grand or two in parts, but I already had all the performance bits -- carbs, cams and exhaust.

The "while you're in there" bits add up fast: your fuel tank is probably dirty and corroded, so it should be relined. Ceramic coating the exhaust really helps keep engine bay temps down. A gear reduction starter works far better than stock. You may want to upgrade the braking system. Struts are hard to come by for these cars, Monte Hospital wants $800+ per set (though X1/9 units will work in a pinch). Adjustable coil-overs are even more. Motor mounts and cooling system hoses are Monte Hospital exclusive and pricey. It can be a slippery slope.

The Monte Hospital is in the U.K. (add extra shipping costs), and even they don't have everything. https://dev.montehospital.com/
Click to expand...
Fortunately there's minimal body damage/rust on this example, I also have a fabricator friend who can make any part, I plan on him making stainless steel radiator hoses, I also plan on going all new breaks, coilovers, bushings, and the like. I've looked through the montehospital site but shipping would be a real killer since I'm on the west coast. All my hoses need replaced, and some of the transmission linkages could use some help as well, slave cylinder is completely shot, nothing too surprising for a car that hasn't moved for half its life, I'll likely see if I can't find a new radiator and more modern fans for it, interior will stay the same but reupholstered (which I'm complete unsure of pricing on). I worked at a bodyshop for a number a years, I'm not at all fast at it but it should look quite nice when it's done in 5-10 years I'm guessing
 
Pete Whitstone said:
There's that end of it, and then there's the insurance/replaceability problem. Do you really want to sink $16k (or much more) and thousands of hours into a vehicle, only to have it destroyed by some idiot distracted driver a week after you finish it? Not that that couldn't happen if it was just a weekend fun machine, but if you DD it, you are increasing those odds by a lot. Especially in a small vehicle in a world of SUVs/trucks, and "oh, I didn't see you down there".

Insurance won't be much help. They will look up book value on a 45 year old car and give you pennies. If you get insurance designed for classic cars that will help with that, but it will most likely come with restrictions. And if it's the other drivers fault, you're still at the mercy of THEIR insurance.

Sorry to be a bummer, but as someone who has been down this road, these are things you have to think about before you DD a vehicle like this.
Click to expand...
The usual classic car insurance companies or exclusive ones such a Chubb will insure it for want you want pending appraisal. Document everything. Keep receipts, photos, spreadsheet, ... Being run into by someone else you can usually go through your own insurance and have them subrogate against the other insurance. That is if the person is insured. PNW looks nutty from over here.
 
Lturner7 said:
Fortunately there's minimal body damage/rust on this example, I also have a fabricator friend who can make any part, I plan on him making stainless steel radiator hoses, I also plan on going all new breaks, coilovers, bushings, and the like. I've looked through the montehospital site but shipping would be a real killer since I'm on the west coast. All my hoses need replaced, and some of the transmission linkages could use some help as well, slave cylinder is completely shot, nothing too surprising for a car that hasn't moved for half its life, I'll likely see if I can't find a new radiator and more modern fans for it, interior will stay the same but reupholstered (which I'm complete unsure of pricing on). I worked at a bodyshop for a number a years, I'm not at all fast at it but it should look quite nice when it's done in 5-10 years I'm guessing
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Brakes - Midwest Bayless Whoa! Brakes
Coilovers - Midwest Bayless Yellow Koni
All my hoses need replaced - Depends, if retaining twincam there are less if you do internal thermostat
Transmission linkages- I got 2 sets of the bushings from Midwest Bayless last summer
New radiator and more modern fans for it - Midwest Bayless or Vick's. Same as X19. Aluminum.
 
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