Lowering a fiat 128
- Thread starter T.G
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Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
FYI the 128SL front struts and X1/9 Mk2 rear struts do not differ at all. Maybe the spring rate differs but they measure the same.I'm assuming the length difference between the 127 and 128 struts is in the body (main tube) portion? Say from the mounting tabs to the top gland nut that secures the insert? If you have one that you can get a rough measurement from I'll compare that to the X's. Who knows, the X strut might be a shorter option for the 128, or the 127 strut might be a shorter option for the X.
T.G
Daily Driver
Yes it is very common mostly on Cars that are not the best on fuel economyAgreed. And sorry if I missed your earlier comments on this.
I've heard there's considerable LPG conversion/usage in the UK. Is it also common in your country?
For a 4 cilinder car it usually costs about €2500 to let a certifeit shop install it and the main thing why not every one has it is because your roadtax goes up about 2 classes but it gets installed in cars that People buy new and drive for alot of km mostly or cars like old Americans with big engines and that are totally not efficiënt on fuel but if a car is older than 1982 you dont have to pay roadtax on it anymore so cars older than that almost always on lpg because there really is no downside to it anymore than
If you have more questions feel free to ask anytime
T.G
Daily Driver
Hi everyone i made some temporary spacers to lower the rear and to see what lengths spacers i would need
BUT i think because i have that pretty big lpg tank (gas tank) in the back and the original fuel tank under the car my rear suspension bottoms out really easy and super Quick so what would be my options there?
I am really contemplating on buying a adjustable coilover kit for another car with about the same weight and welding the original mounts on those coilovers and than deleting the rear leafspring
T.G
BUT i think because i have that pretty big lpg tank (gas tank) in the back and the original fuel tank under the car my rear suspension bottoms out really easy and super Quick so what would be my options there?
I am really contemplating on buying a adjustable coilover kit for another car with about the same weight and welding the original mounts on those coilovers and than deleting the rear leafspring
T.G
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Lowtechprime
Retro Grouch
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
I also did some measurements and my conclusion is that the leaf spring needs to be lowered about 40mm to get a good ride height. What I see in your photo you are very close to that. I will re-arch my spring to avoid having spacers. However, I am a little bit worried what would happen if having two persons in the backseat and 50 kilos in the trunk. I think the suspension would bottom out.
Dr Jeff's idea about having an air suspension is not bad and that is a much cheaper option than a coil-over conversion. There are cheap general airbags available at least if not installing an onboard compressor. I think it would be possible to remove the bump stop and install an airbag at the same location. It is just a matter of finding an airbag that is small/thin enough.
maXpeedingrods have lot of options but most of them seems to be made for big cars like F150.
Steve Thomas
True Classic
Need to be very careful here. Air bag springs as generally applied in the aftermarket world are a very bad idea. The focus is all on ultimate load carrying or the ability to seriously lower [slam] a vehicle. Pretty much nobody talks about spring rates and travel. The common installation in parallel with original leaf springs [usually between the axle and the chassis rail] very often results in catastrophic chassis rail failures. The vehicle OEMs do not expect high loads in the chassis above the axle - they expect loads to come in at the spring hangers. The other issues are around spring rate and travel. Most bags used for aftermarket deliver very high spring rates and shocking ride. This is simply because diameter is restricted to make retrospective installation easier/possible. All discussion among typical users is about how cool it looks with the car slammed. Nobody is talking about the handling or cornering or ride ..... Don't get me wrong, air bags done well are very effective and can deliver good rates and long travel. They also provide good NVH isolation. But - they have to be sized correctly and that means big diameter. Truck and bus and at the small end, some big SUVs. FIATS?? I dunno
Lowtechprime
Retro Grouch
Yes, I would agree that airbags will probably not produce a 'sporty' drive, I guess it all depends on how and why you drive your 128. I take it on fun rides in the mountains, but also run errands around town, it's always just me or me and the Wife.. I'm never a family of 4 going out to dinner so there has never been an issue..
I've only got about 20 pounds in the trunk (battery, tools, cleaning supplies) and would not want to carry two people in the back seat with the car this low.... On occasion, we've had 3 people and that has been alright but it was the Wife in back and she's barely over 100 pounds so it was fine.
I've only got about 20 pounds in the trunk (battery, tools, cleaning supplies) and would not want to carry two people in the back seat with the car this low.... On occasion, we've had 3 people and that has been alright but it was the Wife in back and she's barely over 100 pounds so it was fine.
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Steve Thomas
True Classic
You could look at a progressive bump stop - more an additional rubber spring that also serves as a bump stop. Normal bump stops are pretty brutal and are really designed to prevent mechanical damage as the suspension nears end of travel. You can use a progressive rubber spring that is always in contact. This gives a much more progressive/soft end of travel and also gives extra load carrying and useable [sort of] travel before end of travel. Check out https://hallite.com/global/digital_collateral/product_brochures/hallite_aeon_rubber_springs.pdf
carl
True Classic
The whole reason the 128 rides high in stock configuration was probably Fiat's assumption that your family of five and matching luggage was going to pile into your family car so it would sit at the right height when loaded. Guys who lower the 128 are planning on driving it as a sports car with just the driver and maybe a passenger.
You are trying to do both and you need to compromise your ride height and or use a heavier rear spring. The other option is an adjustable suspension but you are now in territory that most if not all of us are not experienced with (for Fiats). Coilovers are adjustable for ride height but this is not something you are going to adjust on a daily basis due to anticipated loads for that day.
You are trying to do both and you need to compromise your ride height and or use a heavier rear spring. The other option is an adjustable suspension but you are now in territory that most if not all of us are not experienced with (for Fiats). Coilovers are adjustable for ride height but this is not something you are going to adjust on a daily basis due to anticipated loads for that day.
Lowtechprime
Retro Grouch
That's a great resource! Gives me some ideas
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
That's interesting. I seem to recall reading that the 128 struts are longer than the X's. Such that installing X struts is a means of substantially lowering the 128? But I do not know anything about 128's, only what I've read on the forum.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
With respect I completely disagree with the comments made about air suspensions. However I must say that it will depend upon what components are chosen and how the system is designed.
First, there are many performance applications with air bags on purpose built race-only track cars. Including high end road course cars, endurance sports cars, drift cars, drag cars, and more. Even some large factory supported teams have used them successfully in various forms of racing. Air springs can most definitely be a handling and cornering performance option if desired.
Second, they can be soft for comfort, hard for performance, or even both as desired. That's the beauty of it, you can have the option for the best of both worlds. The key is selecting the right type and size of bags for the specific application. There's a huge range of bag designs.
Third, air bags are springs. So just like with coil springs, how you design/build the suspension will determine how the bags wil function and how they can be adjusted. For example you can adjust the height (travel) and the stiffness (spring rate) independently if you build it that way. And those can both be monitored on the dash (or remotely) if preferred. One nice feature of any air spring is it has a progressive rate by virtue of the nature of using air instead of steel. And unlike coil springs, air bags can be adjusted on the fly from inside the vehicle, quickly and easily.
Fourth, there are many different applications for air bags ranging from the primary suspension on huge 18-wheel big-rig trucks to 100 pound seat mounts on motorcycles...and everything in between. Again, the components need to match the application just like anything else.
Fifth, a air suspension does not need to be "bouncy", "jumpy", "sloppy", or "shocking" or such, as may be seen on some installations. How the air flow is managed will control that. And there are lots of excellent ways to manage it.
Air suspension has come a long way in the last 15 years. And the options are pretty much limitless now. You can keep it very simple or get very complex, and the cost will vary accordingly. The simplest system only has a schrader valve to fill the bags so no compressor, tank, valves, or management system is required. The next general level has one compressor, a small tank, and manual air valves located in the vehicle, with or without air gauges. A more complex setup will have multiple compressors, larger tank(s), electronic valves, pressure sensors, height sensors, travel sensors, programmable automatic computer management, and a wireless control/display on your phone. The suspension design can also be very simple or complex. Starting with the bag merely adding to or replacing the original spring. The next level is coilovers with air bags instead of coil springs. And a more complex system will have custom control arms, new pick up points added to the chassis, height adjustments for the bag mounts, independant dampeners, and fully adjustable.
For a lightweight car like the 128 consider air sleeves instead of bags. Also decide if you want them to function as the primary (and only) spring - which I highly recommend, or as a "helper" spring (load compensating) in addition to the existing leaf spring. How you design the suspension will be very different for those two systems.
A good air suspension supplier can assist in selecting the appropriate components for your specific application. I have a good contact in Calif of you need. He can even build you custom components for your individual requirements. Also I can provide more information on how to set up a air spring for both height and stiffness adjustments. I've built systems ranging from towing helper springs for my full size pickup truck to full custom air controlled suspensions on sports cars. Admittedly my personal favorite function is to radically lower a vintage car for the look, but be able to raise it for drivability. However as I've pointed out they can do much more than that.
First, there are many performance applications with air bags on purpose built race-only track cars. Including high end road course cars, endurance sports cars, drift cars, drag cars, and more. Even some large factory supported teams have used them successfully in various forms of racing. Air springs can most definitely be a handling and cornering performance option if desired.
Second, they can be soft for comfort, hard for performance, or even both as desired. That's the beauty of it, you can have the option for the best of both worlds. The key is selecting the right type and size of bags for the specific application. There's a huge range of bag designs.
Third, air bags are springs. So just like with coil springs, how you design/build the suspension will determine how the bags wil function and how they can be adjusted. For example you can adjust the height (travel) and the stiffness (spring rate) independently if you build it that way. And those can both be monitored on the dash (or remotely) if preferred. One nice feature of any air spring is it has a progressive rate by virtue of the nature of using air instead of steel. And unlike coil springs, air bags can be adjusted on the fly from inside the vehicle, quickly and easily.
Fourth, there are many different applications for air bags ranging from the primary suspension on huge 18-wheel big-rig trucks to 100 pound seat mounts on motorcycles...and everything in between. Again, the components need to match the application just like anything else.
Fifth, a air suspension does not need to be "bouncy", "jumpy", "sloppy", or "shocking" or such, as may be seen on some installations. How the air flow is managed will control that. And there are lots of excellent ways to manage it.
Air suspension has come a long way in the last 15 years. And the options are pretty much limitless now. You can keep it very simple or get very complex, and the cost will vary accordingly. The simplest system only has a schrader valve to fill the bags so no compressor, tank, valves, or management system is required. The next general level has one compressor, a small tank, and manual air valves located in the vehicle, with or without air gauges. A more complex setup will have multiple compressors, larger tank(s), electronic valves, pressure sensors, height sensors, travel sensors, programmable automatic computer management, and a wireless control/display on your phone. The suspension design can also be very simple or complex. Starting with the bag merely adding to or replacing the original spring. The next level is coilovers with air bags instead of coil springs. And a more complex system will have custom control arms, new pick up points added to the chassis, height adjustments for the bag mounts, independant dampeners, and fully adjustable.
For a lightweight car like the 128 consider air sleeves instead of bags. Also decide if you want them to function as the primary (and only) spring - which I highly recommend, or as a "helper" spring (load compensating) in addition to the existing leaf spring. How you design the suspension will be very different for those two systems.
A good air suspension supplier can assist in selecting the appropriate components for your specific application. I have a good contact in Calif of you need. He can even build you custom components for your individual requirements. Also I can provide more information on how to set up a air spring for both height and stiffness adjustments. I've built systems ranging from towing helper springs for my full size pickup truck to full custom air controlled suspensions on sports cars. Admittedly my personal favorite function is to radically lower a vintage car for the look, but be able to raise it for drivability. However as I've pointed out they can do much more than that.
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Steve Thomas
True Classic
Absolutely. Spent about 10 years of my working life designing heavy vehicle air suspensions. My comments are around how air suspensions in the aftermarket are ACTUALLY done in general. I'm sticking to my guns
. They are generally very poor. Agreed, the rolling bellows [sleeve] type is far superior. The convoluted type originated as air actuators.I still say, to do it well on a car is difficult and expensive - needs space, power and weight [bags, valving, compressor etc]. Probably well overkill in this case too.
The 128 rear suspension is elegant in its simplicity. Re-arching a leaf as @fiatfactory suggested is probably the neatest, cleanest and cheapest solution.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I certainly cannot disagree with you, most air suspension installations are done cheaply and crudely with a poor outcome. However that's also true for automobile customization in general.Absolutely. Spent about 10 years of my working life designing heavy vehicle air suspensions. My comments are around how air suspensions in the aftermarket are ACTUALLY done in general. I'm sticking to my guns
I still say, to do it well on a car is difficult and expensive - needs space, power and weight [bags, valving, compressor etc]. Probably well overkill in this case too.
The 128 rear suspension is elegant in its simplicity. Re-arching a leaf as @fiatfactory suggested is probably the neatest, cleanest and cheapest solution.
There are a number of specialty shops that know how to do it right and design proper systems that function excellently. And although a good shop will charge a lot for that, it does not necessarily have to be extremely expensive to build a decent working setup once you know how and select the right components. In my opinion it really isn't that difficult, but I do a considerable amount of fabrication and customizing work in general.
As for the 128, I've built systems for cars with much less available space. And for vehicles worth much less than a 128. So it depends on what the owner's goals are. Personally I think the 128 is a prime candidate for air; the stock suspension is a mediocre design at best, sits redicoulsy high, handles poorly, and rides comfortably....again, only my opinion.
To me trying to make the stock suspension work better and ride lower is like a old expression I heard a lot back in my corporate management days with a aerospace engineering company; the engineers would call it "polishing a turd".
I'd prefer to start with a better design using modern technology, either with coilovers or air bags.
Steve Thomas
True Classic
and rolling it in glitter....I certainly cannot disagree with you, most air suspension installations are done cheaply and crudely with a poor outcome. However that's also true for automobile customization in general.
There are a number of specialty shops that know how to do it right and design proper systems that function excellently. And although a good shop will charge a lot for that, it does not necessarily have to be extremely expensive to build a decent working setup once you know how and select the right components. In my opinion it really isn't that difficult, but I do a considerable amount of fabrication and customizing work in general.
As for the 128, I've built systems for cars with much less available space. And for vehicles worth much less than a 128. So it depends on what the owner's goals are. Personally I think the 128 is a prime candidate for air; the stock suspension is a mediocre design at best, sits redicoulsy high, handles poorly, and rides comfortably....again, only my opinion.
To me trying to make the stock suspension work better and ride lower is like a old expression I heard a lot back in my corporate management days with a aerospace engineering company; the engineers would call it "polishing a turd".
T.G
Daily Driver
Hi everyone
I found a good solution to lower the front on the 128
I have bought a adjustable coilover set from a volkswagen golf mk1 (or a rabbit mk1 for some of you)
And with pretty little modifications it fits the front really well i am not 100% done but i wil post some pictures tonight wat needs modifing
The nice thing is that i can now adjust my ride height
As for the rear i am gonna be adding a extra leaf spring from a trailer i had setting around en see how that is gonna behave with the heavy lpg tank in the back and then i am gonna lower with some spacers between the mounting points
Here are some pictures of how it looks now
I found a good solution to lower the front on the 128
I have bought a adjustable coilover set from a volkswagen golf mk1 (or a rabbit mk1 for some of you)
And with pretty little modifications it fits the front really well i am not 100% done but i wil post some pictures tonight wat needs modifing
The nice thing is that i can now adjust my ride height
As for the rear i am gonna be adding a extra leaf spring from a trailer i had setting around en see how that is gonna behave with the heavy lpg tank in the back and then i am gonna lower with some spacers between the mounting points
Here are some pictures of how it looks now
Attachments
Bjorn Nilson
True Classic
Looking good. Yes, that's the easiest and best way but rather costly. There are coils made for the 128 available on the market. Rear coil-overs for X1/9 are also a direct fit. Good to know that VW Golf Mk1 coils also fit.
T.G
Daily Driver
Those coils for the 128 are super exspensive to get from the netherlands i found this coilover kit for €50 used so this is really the cheapest option for me
