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Manifold flanges

Discussion in 'Discussion Forum' started by Dr.Jeff, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. rocco79/138

    rocco79/138 True Classic

    Location:
    Fairview nc
    When did this switch over to a waxing thread???
    :)
    Only icon I can use is the one I build... Good thing colon, dash, ending parentheses does not actually mean anything (other than smiley face).
    Regards
     
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  2. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    He was waxing poetic. :)
     
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  3. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    HeeHee, he said colon. :);):(:mad::confused::cool::p:D:eek::oops::rolleyes:o_O
    (Hope I covered my icon requirement)
     
  4. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    SMH... this one has strayed into the nether regions... LOL
     
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  5. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    I decided it was probably easier to just recreate the outline than it would be to try and use the previous one. I left the bottom edge flush with the head mating surface. The hole sizes I used are 1.25 for the header tubes and 10mm for the mounting holes, that's what the stock manifold has. These sizes can be changed pretty easily if we decide on a different size. I need to get printer ink and print a sample to try on the head to verify everything before I burn any steel. I'll probably have to go to my brothers place to print them, all I have is an 8.5 x 11 printer and he has an 11 x 14, or maybe this is an excuse to get a new printer... Header flange.JPG
     
  6. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Looks nice Brian.
    Couple quick questions. What type of file is your image in? And I'm just curious how much different this is from the other file we started with...in terms of the dimensions. That second question may not be answerable but I'm wondering if maybe the other file had bad data to start with, or if it was just some type of conversion error when it was translated (if that's the right word)?
     
  7. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Looks great.

    I suspect the issues with the first file was a combo of both translation and problems with the base file. When I translated it I made sure the size of the object was very close to the original files stated dimension which leads me to think the original data wasn't good.

    The turning the circles into lines was a result of the resolution of the original file being saved into a PDF and then translated again into a DXF.

    Making a native file that in CAD will always yield a better file than a translated image file. A circle remains a circle not segments and the elements can be independently moved around without affecting any of the other elements of the object unless you have applied parametric rules to the various parts of the drawing.

    Thank you for doing this.

    Karl
     
  8. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Karl, not knowing anything about file types and how you are able to do these things, my next question may be totally redundant to what you just said but...

    Thinking back to my previous contact with the laser cutter person, he suggested a DXF file would be best for him to use. He also said if I had the design in a PDF file that the best method to convert it to DXF is by using AutoCAD, but only newer versions of AutoCAD have that capability. From what he indicated it seemed the use of AutoCAD was the key to yielding an accurate file that could be used for the cutting process. After reading your last comment I'm not clear, is that what you already did? Or if not, is it something you can do? And assuming you can do that, is it possible to simply print it from the DXF file onto paper in "actual size" to use as a comparison to a head for accuracy?

    Again, apologies if these are things you guys have already done. I'm just not well enough versed in this to really follow along with the recent activities. But I would like to try and keep up.

    Thanks, Jeff
     
  9. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    There are a myriad of ways to make an accurate file. A PDF is a very accurate file depending on how it was made, buried in a PDF there can be a variety of other representations of data.

    A DXF file is a very old file type that is still very useful, partially due to the fact that so many systems can make them or read them.

    The file I translated could have been good or it may have been bad due to the way it was saved into a PDF. When it was translated, in this case through Adobe Illustrator which has a DXF exporter. I verified that the file was at the original size or vary close indeed to it.

    Creating an all new file with data we know is correct and then verifying it is the best way forward. The nice thing about it is we can then modify the file to what we want it to be using the base parameters of the original data set. So for example, lets say the head that Brian measured and verified his new file from had 28mm ports. Another head might have the ports ported making them 30mm. The centers of both the 28 and the 30 are the same as are all the fastener locations, so by just changing the diameter of the circle in the base file we can have a new accurate file and parts that we know will fit the new head with 30mm ports.

    We really don't need the old file at this point because we have measured a real head, made a new file and as soon as Brian prints it or cuts a new piece of steel, the file can be verified to be correct or further modified until it is indeed correct.

    The file Brian created could be a DXF or any of a myriad of other file formats and still carry the same accurate information that we could bring to a laser cutter, water jet cutter, plasma cutter or any numerically controlled machining system. I dont know what file he made or what its native format is but the numerical data can be moved from one file type to another with relative ease and great accuracy. Often machines that cut flat objects use a DXF file as the means of bringing the data into the system. Now that we are working with a high quality file we can make it into a DXF for someone who has a laser cutter.

    Karl
     
  10. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Very well explained, thank you Karl. Previously, without being able to fully follow some of the conversation, I wasn't certain where we stood.

    Not to get too scientific, but ideally it would good to measure a few heads to average out any variances. However with this application it is not that critical, like say a precision machined part that is mated to the rotating assembly of the engine. ;) You know, a flywheel for example. :rolleyes:
     
  11. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Yes it would be good to verify on more than the one but this is an area where the OE parts were made from very similar patterns and a few highly automated machining cells that put the threaded holes in effectively the same place time after time. The ports are what varied but likely not very much at least in their center to center relationships and the relationship of where the ports are relative to the fasteners.

    Perhaps if Brian printed a bunch of his verified file and sent the prints to several individuals with different heads (1300, 1500, 1500 FI, Yugo etc) we could then get some verification of the accuracy of his model and possibly see where variation is occurring on the real world objects that already exist.

    I know I could get one lasered out in light gauge steel in the shop under the guise of "government work" as it is referred to out there... Just need the file.

    Karl
     
  12. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    That would be a simple way to confirm the data, great idea.

    And I agree the positioning and sizing of ports is most likely to be what varies, and slight differences there could also be accounted for with port matching of the head/flange if needed. None the less, I think it would be wise to compare with at least another head or two to verify everything...after all these are Fiats so never assume anything will be consistent.
    I think paper templates should be sufficient. Perhaps the file could be emailed to others to print themselves, assuming it is relatively convenient to get a full scale print done at a local copy center? Or paper copies could just be stuck in an envelope and mailed easily. Doubt the sheet metal version is really necessary, might want to save that 'government work' card for more critical needs.
     
  13. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    I would suggest having them all printed using the same printer and process. Have Brian verify that each one is the same and then mail them out. I personally don't have an engine without a header on it so I wouldn't need one but we could ask folks who do to sign up for one.
     
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  14. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    I can check it on 4 different heads, I have Jeff's on the mill, mine on the stand plus I have another derelict engine that I can take the manifolds off of and I just discovered a stripped head in a box while I was looking for a heater part, didn't even know I had it.... so that's 4 heads. I got ink for my printer but I can't get it to print anything useful, the drawing is 11 x 17 and my printer is 8.5 x 11. I was hoping I could get it to tile the prints and get one of each end for the initial test but it's not working out that way. I'll take the file into town next week and get a print. I should get a large format printer but I don't want the expense right now.
     
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  15. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Thanks Brian. I think if the four heads that you have turn out to be the same then there will be no need to investigate any further. No rush on getting it printed, just let us know how it comes out once you have it and verify against the heads. Appreciate everything, excellent job!
     
  16. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Brian, did you also do the intake manifold flange or just the exhaust? One reason that I liked the drawing in the PDF file is that it had both flanges and I hope to experiment with a unique induction project. Thanks.
     
  17. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
    I haven't done the intakes yet but I have the measurements for them, I got the printer issue taken care of and made some adjustments until the paper copy looked good, then I cut another flange but it didn't match the paper copy.... Waiting for my head wound to heal (bashing head against the wall) before I try again..... :(
     
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  18. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Sadly printing isn't always like cutting. Printers can be quite inaccurate, thus the need to have a verifiable dimension on the print (and a way to measure it). Then adjusting the print to match reality.

    Sorry about the head injury. My forehead has long been a bit soft and pulpy...
     
  19. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Thanks Brian. I was referring to getting the measures for the intake, not actually cutting one. That is great that you did, appreciate the work.
    Regarding printing, I went to a large full service print center to get the PDF version of that original file printed. I only wanted something to show a guy I was meeting with to discuss some new product ideas. But the copy center could not print it. Some BS about the size not fitting their paper. So don't feel bad about your print not working right, even the "big boys" couldn't do it.
     
  20. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Just attended a trade show for the latest in manufacturing technology. One popular item was cutting devices; plasma, water jet and laser. I did not realize there are several different takes on each type with things like injecting various high pressure gasses while cutting. And depending on the particular design the quality of the cut will differ with respect to accuracy, squareness (of the cut from top to bottom), edge finish, type and thickness of material capacity, etc. They have cutters that can handle plates of steel something like 30 foot wide by 60 foot long and a foot thick (don't quote me on the exact numbers, but it was impressive), as well as incredibly intricate minuscule patterns.

    The other big thing was 3D printers and the related 3D scanners. Absolutely amazing what the latest versions are capable of; in addition to several types of plastics/polymers they have carbon fiber, stainless steel, titanium, brass, etc printing materials. And with the US patent on the 3D printer concept having run out the prices have dropped significantly.

    Obviously the related software for machines is continually evolving and with it the potential to do new things. One thing that was expressed to me is the potential for a machine to receive a file that is "good" but the cut product comes out to different dimensions due to software issues (he explained it in detail but my eyes got all glazed as my mind saw images of white sandy beaches and palm trees while he was speaking a foreign language...to me at least).

    Throw in the fact there are a lot more women in the trades and the show had free drinks...well it was fun (hence the reason I can't remember the actual capacity of the cutters nor explain the software issue).
     

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