Melted Piston.

lookforjoe

lookforjoe

True Classic
8/26/2014 EDIT: See THIS POST for summary of mods.

Finally got the cooling system all wrapped up, running nice & cool with the larger custom rad, shroud with dual fans and the new AC condenser. EDIT: Had to find alternate fans, the installed ones were crap

Then, on the way home today, I lost power on the highway -managed to coast it off the ramp, and into a parking lot. After cooling down a little, I was able to restart & get it the last 1/2 mile home. In that last half mile, the dipstick pushed out & sprayed a far bit of oil.

vid of blowby from dipstick



So, I pulled the plugs, which looked fine, and did a compression test:

#1: 175 #2: 55 #3: 125 #4: 175

Judging from the blowby & compression numbers, I presumed piston damage. So I figured might as well pull the head & see what's what.

IMG_2869_zpsf1acb63b.jpg


IMG_2872_zpse975ecdf.jpg


#3 #2
IMG_2870_zps7ecacb76.jpg


left side of #2....
IMG_2873_zps14919e79.jpg

right side of #2
IMG_2871_zps9398bd09.jpg


head bolts were new with head job - far left bolt - pretty corroded

IMG_2875_zps06048455.jpg


So, I'm wondering what did it in. I did overheat it a couple of times over the past couple years - both times due to the roof catch hitting the bleed nipple on the rad - the last time (last year I think) it really cooked. I'm sure that didn't help matters.

I have a wideband, and there was no indication of a lean condition - but, if one injector failed, it wouldn't show up anyway.

The injectors were rebuilt when I did the head/cam a few years ago, so maybe 10K miles since. The connectors look a little iffy - I'll need to ohm out the harness & see if there is a continuity problem there.

IMG_2874_zps9ad921d8.jpg


Either way, I'll have to go with new injectors & rebuild the harness, I can't leave it as is.

SO, I need to rebuild this motor, a motor swap (Honda, etc) is not possible at this time, so I could use input on piston choices, etc.

EDIT: Maybe this is a good option: 1600 Stroker ....
 
Last edited:
The scoring on the cylinder wall indicate that it got hot at some point which you said happened in the past. The oil lubrication broke down as a result. The rings/cylinder walls probably were weakened at the time of overheat.
 
IIRC haven't you been battling overheating off and on with the car for a while now?

Cyls #2 and #3 look "steam-cleaned" while Cyls #1 and #4 look normal. And that dark spot between #1 and #2 looks like the head gasket failed.

I'd have your machine shop magnaflux the block and Zyglo or at least do an old fashioned pressure test on the head. I'm thinking a cracked block or head that's letting coolant into the cyls and/or combustion chamber.

Sorry for your troubles, but my sense is that you'll see this more as a "challenge" than a "disaster"....and you probably have a back-of-a-napkin contingency plan that involves building a bigger better kick-asss engine anyway:pimp:
 
Sorry for your loss. :(

Definitely lifted the gasket at 2/3, and as noted 1/2 looks a little iffy.
2/3 pistons are definitely steam cleaned.

First stages of major seizure.
Bore is toast (you know that already)

Time to rebore and get new pistons, there's a good range of upgrade options available. Lots of recent discussion about what's available right now.

Whatever you choose set your Squish / Quench by choosing a head / head gasket and piston position (zero deck /pop up) combination that gives a SQ at 1.0mm, any wider and your giving ME and VE away (which means HP)

SQ any tighter is too close for comfort for a street engine.

You've got a 14 bolt, so something like a Tipo head is an "off the shelf" option to you for a 39.5/31 or 37.5/33.4 factory BVH combination.

SteveC
 
Yeah Hussein... I agree with Dan and Steve...

Sorry for your trouble especially after all the radiator work you've been doing.

I know you'll get this put together again right. Looks like a lot of machining though. Do have the deck checked as well as the head.

You have my condolences...
 
Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that Hussein has a 14-bolt head works in his favor if Hussein wants to take this opportunity to acquire one of the Tipo/Punto blocks that member GTTurbo offers from time to time.

I think I remember member Rachaeljf posting that the X1/9 14 bolt head is a drop-on onto some of the later Tipo/Punto open-deck blocks, and is a bolt-on to the X1/9 5-speed trans. If so, that lets Hussein get one of those blocks which can support the two longer throw cranks that can yield a 1.7 engine or a 1.9 engine.
 
#2 shows low compression but #3 shows scoring, 2/3 are steam cleaned, looks like the gasket went between 2/3 but that's a bit of an odd place to go and then you'd think #3 would have low compression numbers too, bummer
I'm impressed you had the head off the same day.:nod::nod:
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that Hussein has a 14-bolt head works in his favor if Hussein wants to take this opportunity to acquire one of the Tipo/Punto blocks that member GTTurbo offers from time to time.

I think I remember member Rachaeljf posting that the X1/9 14 bolt head is a drop-on onto some of the later Tipo/Punto open-deck blocks, and is a bolt-on to the X1/9 5-speed trans. If so, that lets Hussein get one of those blocks which can support the two longer throw cranks that can yield a 1.7 engine or a 1.9 engine.
Click to expand...


Yes - I have been PM'ing with GTTurbo - he has suggested a couple of options - I didn't know a 1900cc was an option - I'd love the greater displacement, curious what changes would be needed to the EFI to handle that.
 
jvandyke said:
#2 shows low compression but #3 shows scoring, 2/3 are steam cleaned, looks like the gasket went between 2/3 but that's a bit of an odd place to go and then you'd think #3 would have low compression numbers too, bummer
I'm impressed you had the head off the same day.:nod::nod:
Click to expand...

Thank you - I did take a couple hours to work on my wagon :rolleyes: before I pulled the head - I was a little too PO'd to start on it after doing the compression test :( #2 is the one with scoring on both sides & bits of piston stuck to the bore, though...
 
As I understand the pieces, X1/9 blocks are limited by the location of the oil gallery, as compared to the Tipo/Punto blocks.

My understanding is that the clearances needed to accommodate the crank throw needed to get past the 1.6 displacement range would require machining too much material out of the oil gallery area and would end up encroaching on the oil gallery. There may be some magic combination of aftermarket con rods that gets around this, but so far I don't think that's been established in the info that I've seen posted here on Xweb.

I'd love to see you get a good used block, crank, and rods, and combine that with maybe some hi-zoot forged pistons and your existing 14 bolt FI head (with some headwork and a nice cam) that would all fit together to yield a 1.9 NA engine. With your bored-out throttle plenum, maybe all you'd need to feed it would be higher capacity editions of the ubiquitous Bosch L-Jet injectors. Getting as much as you can out of "parts bins" will certainly keep the costs down.

175HP?
 
I'd love to see a 1.9 build too...

Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
I'd love to see you get a good used block, crank, and rods, and combine that with maybe some hi-zoot forged pistons and your existing 14 bolt FI head (with some headwork and a nice cam) that would all fit together to yield a 1.9 NA engine. With your bored-out throttle plenum, maybe all you'd need to feed it would be higher capacity editions of the ubiquitous Bosch L-Jet injectors. Getting as much as you can out of "parts bins" will certainly keep the costs down.

175HP?
Click to expand...

But 175hp is wildly optimistic IMO. With a 2-valve head, no variable valve timing, no computer knock control, no computer ignition control, etc I just don't see it happening. 130hp would be far more realistic from what is essentially only a 27% increase in displacement.

But didn't the 1.9 block, as sold in Europe, come with a 4-valve head? If I was to go the 1.9 route, I wouldn't bother unless an upgrade of the head was available.

And then you have to start wondering about the stock transmission, which many a 75hp engine have sent to the rebuild shop...

An entire drivetrain swap just makes more and more sense.

Pete
 
I think there was a 1.6 SOHC engine that came with a 4-valve head, but that's a crossflow head that most likely will have issues fitting into an unmodified X1/9 engine compartment.

Actual factory FIAT 1.9 engines seem to be mostly diesels.

There is an almost current FIAT 1.9 16v gasoline engine available....it's hard to understand the translations sometimes, but from what I can tell they were being manufactured and installed in the FIAT Linea built and sold in Brazil. Funny thing, these engines were developed here in the USA while FIAT was hooked up with GM!
 
Thanks for your input, Steve.

I dropped the head & cam box off at the machine shop to have it checked. I showed him the pics of the bore & took the HG with me.

His impression is that the relatively clean pistons & head chambers are from fuel wash - since with compression drop it won't be ideal combustion - not coolant. That would make more sense, since there is no oil in the coolant, nor was there any coolant smoke or pressure in the cooling system (I have Evan's Waterless in there, with a 4lb cap).

At this point, I'm leaning toward stroker crank, if for no other reason than I need a rebore & new pistons anyway. If can't justify the expense of a build or complete motor swap on this at the moment.

My Volvo Wagon is the big money pit - I just spent a chunk on custom 6pot calipers & 2 piece rotor setup, since * 450AWHP I find that the Brembo/Porsche 4pots don't provide adequate braking from 120+.

The X1/9 also needs rust removal in the strut towers, F&R, some rear inner fender/drain pocket rust removal, and wheel arch repair. If I invest minimum 3K+ in a motor job, I'm going to have to deal with all the rust as well - on the other hand - maybe that's not such a bad idea :rolleyes:

I feel like I'm swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other every time I consider the options. :sad:

EDIT - If I went with the 1.9L version - it would be easier to convert the EFI to Volvo's LH2.2 or 2.4 system - much more reliable - I dunno :wall:
 
Last edited:
As with all builds, you need to come up with a plan, but having seen your work (on whatever you do) progress steadily I know your already scheming and plotting.

Your choices boiled down to the three basic options.

1) Stay 1500 and rebuild, retain existing head with a freshen up. Your at the cross roads and get to choose, to some degree, your static compression. You get to set your quench clearance, and you get to position the piston where you want to.

1a) Stay 1500 and rebuild. As you have a 14 bolt block, the option exists to get a Tipo based head and fit it to your engine, 39.5 /31 or 37.5/33 combination, a sort of factory big valve head (and without all the compromises that PBS built into theirs) Static compression, SQ clearance and piston position as above

2) Stroke it to 1600cc retain current head

2a) Stroke to 1600cc, tipo based factory BVH

3) replace the block with a Tipo open face style which allows stroke combinations up to almost 1900cc. retain your current cylinder head

3a) replace the block with a Tipo open face style, up to 1900cc, tipo based factory BVH

IMO the 1600 hits the sweet spot when you consider bore /stroke and rod ratios, valve to bore (capacity) sizing, and potential in Hp/l.

Larger stroke combinations sound appealing, but coming to a really "strong" combination of bore / stroke and rod ratio , plus considering the available flow capacity... it's a steep learning curve... but if you feel like a challenge, go for it.

SteveC
 
lookforjoe said:
Thank you - I did take a couple hours to work on my wagon :rolleyes: before I pulled the head - I was a little too PO'd to start on it after doing the compression test :( #2 is the one with scoring on both sides & bits of piston stuck to the bore, though...
Click to expand...
oops, my bad, looking at it the wrong way, ignore me, carry on
 
fiatfactory said:
As with all builds, you need to come up with a plan, but having seen your work (on whatever you do) progress steadily I know your already scheming and plotting.

2a) Stroke to 1600cc, tipo based factory BVH
IMO the 1600 hits the sweet spot when you consider bore /stroke and rod ratios, valve to bore (capacity) sizing, and potential in Hp/l.

SteveC
Click to expand...

This sounds the best. Thank you very much for helping lay it out. :)

I'm arranging getting a crank & BVH from GTTurbo.
 
Had time this afternoon to drop the engine & trans.

IMG_2879_zpsb7e5ec7d.jpg


IMG_2877_zps2fb47fdf.jpg


IMG_2878_zpsbbb5fffd.jpg


Now I have to strip the block & get the bores checked.

The used HG I measured at about .080" - which seems very thick for a crushed gasket. EDIT: remeasured the fire ring - .065" and the oil feed ring .0645"

One thing I'm confused about is the use of 1600 crank with 1500 rods, and pistons sold by various vendors, which seem to be stock 1600 pistons.

Are the 1600 rods the same as the 1500? If not, I don't understand how the stock 1600 pistons can be used without them rising above the deck.

With my Volvo, I switched to longer rods/shorter skirt pistons to reduce reciprocating mass - it revs much more nicely. I'm trying to understand if this is a similar mod.
 
Last edited:
1500 / 1600 use the same rod, forged std, 128.5 mm long, the SCAT option is really so cheap it makes sense. To reuse std rod would be fine, and they will fit the stock crankcase with very minor work to the crankcase oil gallery,well within your ability...

I like to check stuff before I use it (and push it hard) so my rebuild would include crack testing the rods, rebushing them and resizing them after fitting new std rod bolts and nuts... all this adds up to more than you get get the SCAT's for...so it's a bit of a no brainer these days to go the SCAT option if you intend to push the engine hard.

The stock 1580 pistons have a compression height of 33.3mm but a dished head that will make the CR just 9.2:1, the stock 1500 big flycut pistons are 34.45 to 34.65 in CH and will poke out the top by around 1mm , 1300 pistons are 34.7CH and have a 0.6mm pimple, some uno 1300's use a piston with 34.9CH and smallflycuts. The Mahle / KS pistons known as 0872, have a CH of 34.15mm and smallflycuts. I sold RossH and varvelle from this forum these pistons for their stroker builds, maybe PM them and see how they went. No matter which piston you use it will need flycuts enlarged to suit the oversized intakes your planning to use.

SteveC
 
Last edited:
Thanks for clearing that up, Steve.

I've seen H-beams in 128.5mm for various Fiat models with ARP8740 hardware for around $250. Ones with "Scat" & ARP2000 hardware list for $350, they say two part forging.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top