Missing shim washer in CV join

Rod Midkiff

Rod Midkiff

True Classic
I am replacing CV joint boots (two of them are torn, and I am replacing all 4). I have the short side all apart, cleaned up, and mostly put together, and I noticed that one side has an extra washer.
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(I removed the snap ring and pulled the joint partway off to show the washer with the CV joint lifted off of it.
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Here is what the snap ring grove looks like for line up. It's tight. I needed to tap the snap ring into place lightly with a punch. (it was also tight to remove)

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Here is the other side that was missing the spacer washer. You can see there is a lot of slop for the snap ring to jump into place. (I also noticed this side did not give me any trouble taking the snap ring off.)

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(just a shot showing how much gap there is. (I Had not at this time assembled the CV joint)

I have had this car for a few years (It was a purchase found here on X-web), but I am unclear on most of the history before Me. I am 99.89% sure that the clip was missing before I started on this project.

I would not think it was left out for some strange clearance/tolerance problem.

So the best thing to do is ask people who have more knowledge them I do!

(oh, Also, if you are ordering parts to do 4 CV boots, order 8 band clamps, not 4). It's only funny if you sit back and laugh at yourself! :: smiles ::
 
EricH said:
I have a confession to make.... I use zip ties.
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I have been considering it, might just zip tie the small end and use the band clamps that I have for the large end. it is a tight fit, not real sure the small end actually needs anything as tight as they are.
 
There shouldn't be end float on the CV center - MWB has the Belleville ('cone') washers - there should be at least one per joint to take up the float so the CV doesn't hammer the snap ring with lateral movement, as your first example illustrates, the hub cannot move with the tension required to get the snap ring on.
 
I have seen MWB has them for sale. I also have a few Axles laying around to pull one from. I had done CV joints when I was a Transmission R&R person toward the beginning of my working life. I was suspecting what you are saying, Joe, but not knowing every detail asking to make sure there was not some reason for there to only be one on one side and not on the other. I know this axle has been in service for a few years of daily driver status, and it missing does not appear to have done any damage,
 
Not really a shim, it is a thick belleville washer or conical spring washer. This washer keeps tension on the CV joint to axle splines preventing the CV joint from bouncing around under torque transmitted. They need to be on the opposite side of the CV joint where the snap ring sits.

What often happens, that conical spring washer makes installing the snap ring on the oppose side difficult, so more than a few service folks will leave it out to ease assembly.. figuring the snap ring is good enough, but did not understand the design-engineering folks added that conical washer for very good reasons.

If the CV joint bounces around on the splines, the splines will wear or get beat up more than they normally would. In a street / road car driven easy, could be ok. In a motor sports, specially endurance events, something will fail if this much gap was between the axle to CV joint.


Bernice
 
it has puzzled Me how long it has been this way, would not think this contributed to the CV boot failing, as this boot was torn, and the other one still looked good,
 
I do not see any difference in the splines on the shaft, looked them over close figuring it might hammer on them harder with the extra movement. I did notice the snap ring was tough to remove with the washer in and needed to seat it with a punch when putting it back together.
 
Just put a belleville washer on the other one & be done with it. It's not supposed to be able to float on the shaft.
 
Rod Midkiff said:
it has puzzled Me how long it has been this way, would not think this contributed to the CV boot failing, as this boot was torn, and the other one still looked good,
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The missing belleville washer has zero to do with the CV boot busting, As the CV joint does it's job, it moves a LOT more than what happens between the CV joint -vs- axle..

Put the belleville washer in, move on.


Bernice
 
Just out of interest: are these belleville washers specific to the inner CVs on 5 speeds? I recently refurbished 2 sets of 4 speed drive shafts and neither set had any washers applying tension to the snap rings on the outer CVs.
 
The outer CV joint (correct term is a Rzeppa" joint named after the -I think Hungarian -inventor) for a four speed, unlike all four of the five speed type, are fixed and can not move back and forth as it's held solid by the 30mm hub nut.

The joint is subject to axial torque forces that want to move it back and forth along the axle (because of the inclined grooves), which is why the conical Belleville washer is important on the five speed, and isn't needed on the four speed.

plus the four speed snap ring cant go anywhere, it's almost imbedded into the joint, not like the five speeds where it's quite loose on the end (without the belleville washer)

SteveC
 
Rupunzell said:
The missing belleville washer has zero to do with the CV boot busting, As the CV joint does it's job, it moves a LOT more than what happens between the CV joint -vs- axle..

Put the belleville washer in, move on.


Bernice
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Did that last night, then started on the other side (you know I should have done the other side when I had the transmission out, I was not thinking, but pulling the other A-arm was not horrible), and the other axle still had both of it's Belleville washers.

Thank you for the quick responses and conversation on what I should do. I love this information source. A lot of good people are helping to keep our little cars on the road!!

Rod
 
fiatfactory said:
The outer CV joint (correct term is a Rzeppa" joint named after the -I think Hungarian -inventor) for a four speed, unlike all four of the five speed type, are fixed and can not move back and forth as it's held solid by the 30mm hub nut.

The joint is subject to axial torque forces that want to move it back and forth along the axle (because of the inclined grooves), which is why the conical Belleville washer is important on the five speed, and isn't needed on the four speed.

plus the four speed snap ring cant go anywhere, it's almost imbedded into the joint, not like the five speeds where it's quite loose on the end (without the belleville washer)

SteveC
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FORD patent# 2615317A, Alfred H Rzeppa, Patent granted 1952. https://patents.google.com/patent/US2615317A/en

This Constant Velocity joint design did not go into mass production due to the difficulty of making them when it was invented. According to Carroll Smith, They were used in the FORD gt40, cost $1200 U$D back in the 60's at four per car.

These are inherently high friction devices and why a high quality moly or similar grease is a must. CV joint life and survivability under high torque transmission conditions.

The inner joint on the 4speed is a tripod with needle rollers, different design, different requirements.


Bernice
 
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So to be clear - on a 5-speed X there are four belleville washers, one on each of the four CVJ's, located on the opposite side of the CVJ as the snap ring. If I said that right?
 
and with it being tapered it can be installed backward, and the part it sit's against can also be installed backward. (Oh and as I figured out not only can it be installed backward, you can also have to clock it correctly!!) when you do this it will no longer flex, and is a REAL pain to get it apart again.!
 
Rod Midkiff said:
and with it being tapered it can be installed backward, and the part it sit's against can also be installed backward. (Oh and as I figured out not only can it be installed backward, you can also have to clock it correctly!!) when you do this it will no longer flex, and is a REAL pain to get it apart again.!
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I learned that the hard way - Volvo uses the same design for the AWD fore/aft driveshafts. I stripped & re-booted one & put it back together, only to find when I drove off the lift that it made a nasty banging when it locked. Had to take it back out the car, dismantle, figure out the correct orientation of the inner & outer & reassemble. I use a punch to mark them before degreasing. I'll NEVER make that mistake again!

V70-AWD-00194.jpg
 
Rod Midkiff said:
and with it being tapered it can be installed backward, and the part it sit's against can also be installed backward. (Oh and as I figured out not only can it be installed backward, you can also have to clock it correctly!!) when you do this it will no longer flex, and is a REAL pain to get it apart again.!
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Any more details on the correct orientation, which way if should face and how it should be clocked?
Also, this is the same for all four joints on the 5-speed?
 
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