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More Brake Problems

Discussion in 'Workshop Forum' started by Red Bull 78, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    I'm about ready to drive this sucker into the River.
    1 Complete Brake system Rebuild, 4 years ago. Only OEM parts left are the Stainless Lines. No sign of Leaks.
    2 Mismatched Hoses & Master Fittings caused a Slow Leak onto the Carpet. Kept it Full. Replaced Fittings. No Leaks for 2 weeks & 500 miles. With Bad Brakes.
    3 Thought it let Air in, re-bled system, Forward & Backwards.
    4 Still no Rear Brakes.
    5 Left E-Brake on overwinter like a dummy, and thought Calipers Frozen.
    6 Tonight, R&R'd Rear Calipers. Broke OLD, E-Brake Cable, getting it off. Vac Pump kept pulling bubbles, so Backflushed with enough Fluid to Fill Reservoir, TWICE. Still no Rear Brakes.

    A I either still have Air in the System. Get help to Bleed properly.
    B "New", 4 year old, Master Cylinder gone bad. Drive into River.
    C Collect Insurance
    D Find another X
     
  2. kmead

    kmead True Classic

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    My experience with a vacuum bleeder is that it will pull air in around the threads of the bleed screw. This can be somewhat ameliorated by taking the bleeder out and wrapping it with pipe tape and then reinstalling it.

    Pressure bleeding the system is likely the better way. Here is a simple way to make one for not a lot of money:
    http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/Campingart/jettatech/bleeder/index.htm

    I would use the Schrader valve to pump the air in to reduce any aeration of the brake fluid. You only need a few pounds of pressure to move the fluid through.

    This arrangement reduces the need for an additionally person to either pump or open close the bleeder.
     
  3. rocco79/138

    rocco79/138 True Classic

    Location:
    Fairview nc
    I always do and always will say there is one absolute automotively: Only one way to bleed brakes- socially. IMO it takes two to bleed brakes. Two statements you made sort of confused me:
    forward and backwards... What does that mean when applied to bleeding a hydraulic system?
    Another statement my brain just auto corrected that was "new" 4 year old= very not new.
    This is what alarms me most about my cars. I have no intention of driving it in the off season so an old Navy say applies here: "Sailors and ships not out to sea will only rot and rust." This is a paraphrase of some sort on "a ship is safe in harbor but that is not what they are built for. That is more true of cars... They have got to be driving or they rot and rust. But I digress.
    I see a point you did not list. You might have had moisture and some air re-entering through your leaks and the master cylinder was damaged. No matter how or how many times you bleed it if the MC does not work you won't have brakes.
    I always recommend a helper to pump that pedal. No matter how inexperienced I get the same good response when I loosen any bleed port... " The pedal just went to the floor!" Good sign!
    Bleed it any order you want but I always have my helper pump and hold. Release bleed screw with my finger as a check valve. In extreme case I will place a small tube on screw and pump into a little bottle with fluid in it so you don't reintroduce air through the bleed screw. You can see bubbles that way and when they clear you can feel them the other way. For lack of a better description I will say the fluid flows out "soft" until air is out then it actually feels "harder" Go around all four corners checking res level as needed. Repeat. With the helper method you won't be able to bleed the bad circuit. We never needed another tool which will bleed a bad system we need a good part.
    Welcome to the future... No matter how much of a PIA the MC is to install if the Chinese guy/gal that built it screws up you pay. It is for sure a get the best euro part you can deal!
    I think brakes are the most trying system on cars and ours really need lots of TLC to keep working.
    You can get this straight and a new X will do the same thing... Give it time. When you solve this and you are driving through that corner I am 100% certain you will not be upset by this temporary problem but grinning ear to ear!
    Good luck!
    Regards
    Just keep in mind flushing or bleeding by any means other than MC pumping will not check proper operation of MC. It is merely a piece of pipe for those operations.
    Double regards!
     
    lookforjoe likes this.
  4. dragonsgate

    dragonsgate True Classic

    Location:
    arkansas
    That is one of the reasons I have stayed married for 48 years.
     
    lookforjoe and rocco79/138 like this.
  5. rocco79/138

    rocco79/138 True Classic

    Location:
    Fairview nc
    So true! Since my wife made to learn ballroom dancing I can Tango by myself...sure I look silly but no more so than say White Sox and sandals on the goofy matrix.
    In case I haven't said it "it takes two to bleed brakes..." :)
    Regards
     
  6. MikeHynes

    MikeHynes True Classic

    Location:
    Goodfield, IL.
    I agree with Karl, pressure bleeding is very effective, and as shown - not too expensive. (Just don't try to keep any of the leftover fluid!)

    I've heard a lot of chatter about damaging the master cylinder when excessively long strokes are used to bleed the brakes. It makes sense to me, but then again I'm not sure the quality of the replacement master cylinders is very high these days either. So, if you are going to use the pump the pedal method you could limit the stroke by placing a 2X4 between the pedal and the floor so you don't depress it too far.

    Or, just use the pressure bleeder. I actually like to do both once the pressure bleeder takes the majority of the air is out of the system. Once the fluid is running clear and without bubbles I start over again. I slightly crack each bleeder open, one by one, then depress the brake pedal quickly using a broomstick. Sometimes that will break some tiny air bubbles free that might otherwise cause endless grief and frustration.
     
  7. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    Thanks guys! Wasn't headed for the river just yet. Just showing my Frustration with this refurb project.
    rocco79/138 "new" 4 year old= very not new.
    Means ALL new System, barely made it 1500 actual miles. forward and backwards... What does that mean. One man systems. Either Vacuum Pump from Calipers or Backflush the system with Horse Enema size Syringes, also from the Calipers. Push the fluid backwards thru the system, hopefully, taking the air with it. Worked when the system was full of air. That's why the Master is now Suspect #1.
     
  8. rocco79/138

    rocco79/138 True Classic

    Location:
    Fairview nc
    That's what I thought... The brakes are soooooo frustrating! I am trying to decide how to approach preventive maintenance right now. I am thinking about a monthly of clean and inspect all sliders. That would be during driving season. For down time I will just take the calipers off the brackets and push the pistons in and press then back out with the pedal. That too may be a monthly... I may adjust as I go to longer or shorter periods. When I got this car a couple of years ago the clutch was inoperable after much penetrant and manual actuation it finally did start working but it was questionable. Hydraulics have got to move or be moved to stay in service...
    Regards
     
    lookforjoe likes this.
  9. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    I am in complete agreement. Not only with the vacuum devices, but also the retrograde "back flush" methods. I've done the referenced inexpensive pressure mod with several of my vehicles. However instead of using a 'hand-pump garden sprayer' for air pressure, I use my shop compressor. After turning down the pressure on the compressor's regulator to about 10 psi, I then add a second regulator in-line set at 4-5 psi. I also start with the compressor's (large volume) tank about half full and the power off so it won't cycle (to limit the total system pressure). I connect the air hose to the modified master-cylinder cap with a quick-connect fitting, and just leave it on for constant pressure. Never had a problem with this arrangement. Even works great on my late model vehicles with sophisticated ABS systems.

     
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  10. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    Bubble fittings are used on millions of motor vehicles to this day. They do not always reseal reliably due to their design. Similar applies to SAE 45 degree double flares. To pin this problem as "Fiat Only" is not realistic or honest.

    Sitting hydraulic systems brakes or clutch often developed problems. There are many a garage prize with dead hydraulics from sitting and not being used. Mileage is not a "best by date", mileage has far less meaning than overall and actual condition of the parts involved.

    Pro teams and wiser lesser race teams manual bleeds their brakes with two warm bodies. Some will pressure flush fluid, but the majority of the time, brakes get the two warm body air purge treatment. Never seen any of these folks use a vacuum bleeder, ever.

    D. identical problems applies to ANY vintage vehicle. Treat your exxe in the same way as any other Italian exotic.


    Bernice
     
    Oom_Paul likes this.
  11. ianlawson

    ianlawson ian - NZ

    Very wisely stated, Bernice!! Our X's are no different from any other "exotic type" of motor vehicle! They can be "as frustrating as all Hell", but with a little "back-stroking" and kind words of love, they will eventually succumb to your efforts!
    BMcK may chip in here, with our joint "fond memories" of replacing the heater taps on our RHD X1/9's a few years ago! (I am still receiving regular spinal massages resulting from the above undertaking :eek: )

    cheers, IanL - NZ
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2017
  12. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    I'll go you one better on the Air Supply. I have a CO2 Tank with regulator I use with an Air Brush for my model trains, planes and automobiles. Another issue I have is my Plastic Reservoir is cracked on top. I sealed it up with a Hot Glue Gun, 5 years ago. Don't want to Blow it apart. ;)o_O Going to look at possibly adapting my current Clutch Reservoir Cap into a Pressure Bleeder Cap.;):cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  13. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    Maybe that's my problem. Just before my 1st TWO exxes, early 70's, I played in a band with a Sicilian Born, US NAVY Submarine Vet and a NYC guy. They both cussed like Sailors with Turrets, in Italian. Guess I've been using all the wrong words, I thought "Ruby" would understand. Or the "Red Bull" is pissed that I keep calling it "Ruby", these days. :mad::eek::(:D
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  14. TonyK

    TonyK True Classic

    Location:
    Grimsby Ont Canada

    Reseal with bubble flairs on old brake lines sometimes is a problem. What I have done is to make up a small copper washer and insert it into the fitting and then tighten down the tube nut on top of it. ( I think you can purchase them as well) I know not the best, but remaking bubble flairs on the car on old brake line is difficult and sometimes not possible. Because of the issue of resealing when I upgraded my brakes and changed out the rear caliper adjusters. I spun the hose off at the caliper rather than touching the bubble flair nut to the flex line. We all have problems with these older cars, you are not alone.

    TonyK.

    Grimsby Ontario Canada.
     
  15. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    Step ahead of you. First time around, old lines didn't seal properly. Ordered an assorted set of sizes of these. https://www.finditparts.com/product...Vfw75R8u6w3tvzHHI9WY2Bcufbj7a6GUaAo-1EALw_wcB
    Lost the actual Website but can look up the hard copy receipt if needed. Put it all back together and the Supply Line had a light drip onto the carpet.
     
  16. BuddyPalumbo

    BuddyPalumbo Low Mileage

    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    A warning on pressure bleeding, I have been using a cheap pressure bleeder for ages, using a tire for the air pressure(after lowering the pressure to about 14psi) it has multiple caps to fit about any master cylinder reservoir. A couple of years ago, I was bleeding my Triumph TR7 brakes and had evidently not lowered the pressure enough and cracked my aging master cylinder reservoir. Of course you can't buy the reservoir itself anymore, just a new cylinder with the reservoir attached. So be careful with pressure bleeding. Another cheap method to try is reverse bleeding. Get a NEW "old fashioned" oil can, and fill it with brake fluid, attach it with a clear hose to the bleeder, crack the bleeder and pump the fluid in and back up the system. The theory is that the bubbles will naturally want to travel UP, so you are working WITH gravity not against it as you "backbleed" the sytem. Of course this system will not work if you have installed "speedbleed" one way bleed valves
     
    kmead likes this.
  17. JBStories

    JBStories Daily Driver

    I feel your pain. This spring I did a complete R&R on my 1981 hydraulics, front/rear calipers, master cylinders, slave cylinder. When all was back together I think I wasted 3 whole containers of expensive DOT-4 fluid trying to get firm pedals. I tried pressure bleeding (had problems getting tight fit on reservoir cap), traditional bleeding (ugh!), vacuum bleeding (worked 'ok'). There is lots of great advice in this thread but I decided to buy a reverse bleeder kit online with European fittings and this turned out to be the thing that finally worked for me. Look up Phoenix Systems reverse bleeders (V-5). I got most bubbles out of the system by pushing fluid back from the caliper bleed screws to the reservoir. Start at the brake farthest from the cylinder and work from there. (Right Rear -> Left Rear -> Right Front -> Left Front). I agree 100% on possibility of air leaking at the bleeder hose fitting, just get a really tight fit using smaller tubing.
     
  18. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    Tried some Russell One Man Bleeders. Then Vacuum hand pump kit. Got some "Horse Enema" size 100 CC Plastic Syringes, so I could push enough fluid through the system in ONE Move, to even account for any air in the hose attached to the bleeders. Just slow & Easy.
    This time it was rusty E-Brake cables that wouldn't fully release. Left broke while R&R Caliper, so I'm changing them too.
     
  19. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    Purging air out of the hydraulic system is not about how much fluid has been flushed, it is much about how the air is moved-coaxed out of the system. What tends to happen with pressure bleed-purge system, the fluid flow rate is high enough to allow fluid to simply flow around trapped air pockets typically found at tube joints, sharp bends and such. This is why using pressure or vacuum alone to try coaxing these pocket of air out of the system does not always work and waste a lot of fluid.

    Pressure purge allows fast fluid flush, but DO revert back to the two warm body method of purging air out of the system. The fluid flow rate typical of what is normal for the system and if a slight tap at the tube joints and or sharp bends in the brake tubing are made, these actions goes a long ways to moving trapped air out of the system. Example by Tilton Engineering. While this video illustrates air purging a dual brake master system, the basic procedure is much the same for the exxe or any similar brake system. Note in the example of two brake master cylinders, three warm bodies are used and there is NO powered anything to accomplish the goal of removing air in the system.


    http://www.turnology.com/tech-stori...inder-brake-bleeding-with-tilton-engineering/


    Bernice
     
    PaulD likes this.
  20. Red Bull 78

    Red Bull 78 True Classic

    Location:
    Western KY
    Thanx Bernice. This ain't my first Rodeo. Ironically, Brakes are my "Specialty" of sorts. Without a Lift or Power Wrench, I can Change the Pads on my Geo (217XXX) or Corolla (463XXX) in less time than most can change a Flat Tire. Draw Fluid out of the Reservoir, use a C-Clamp to push the Pistons back. Never "crack" the system. A couple of "Pumps" and we're back to NORML.;):D
     

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