My Spider is finally on the way to me

[Austin]

Got confirmation that my new-to-me 1970 Sport Spider is en route!

Seller sent me a photo - is this bumper meant for an earlier year with smaller tail lights?

 

[JimD]

That is probably an add-on bar to protect the center of the rear panel from parking lot taps. It most likely unbolts.

 

[Austin]

Thanks. I've seen lots of others with smaller bars that don't block the brake lights, which seems smarter.

Is there any kind of pictorial guide to what was stock, year by year? I know my dash isn't correct, as it has the big rocker switches instead of toggles, but it would be handy to know everything that needs to be corrected.

 

[kmead]

They have removed the license plate lights from the end of the bumpers and replaced them with that large plate. The over rider was a typical after market bar added by dealers or sold mail order. I think the company that sold the bars was Amoco.

Please post up some pics of the interior and so on when you get the car, there are several very knowledgable 850 owners here who can assist you.

Looking forward to seeing more. Congrats!

 

[Jeff Stich]

Thanks. I've seen lots of others with smaller bars that don't block the brake lights, which seems smarter.

Is there any kind of pictorial guide to what was stock, year by year? I know my dash isn't correct, as it has the big rocker switches instead of toggles, but it would be handy to know everything that needs to be corrected.

You may want to take a closer look at the year & VIN on your vehicle registration. You either have a 1970 Spider with a lot of donor parts from a '73, or your car might actually be a 1973 Spider, instead.

I say this because that is a '73-only rear bumper, which used black plastic block-off plates on the inboard ends instead of the earlier/typical chrome tips with the license plate lights inside them. The '73 model also featured the same large license plate mounting frame as yours does, but yours is missing the black plastic lights on each side (these license plate lights are, ironically, the same lights used on the post-850 Spider Bertone-bodied car - the X1/9). The location of the reflectors on the rear body panel (below the taillights) is another indicator, as on '70 cars they are on the outboard side of the bumper overiders, with '73 having them on the inboard side. Lastly, your mention of the "rocker-type switches" on your dash panel screams "1973", as they were a '73-only feature (all earlier cars used toggle switches).

Your rear bumper looks "odd" to everyone because that crossbar should be straight across (after the short 45º riser), not bent upward in the center. This is usually the result of someone lifting the rear of the car using an engine hoist with a hook/chain on the center of that bar - it's not meant to support that kind of weight!(Picture someone lifting a picnic basket with a bowling ball in it - same result).

If I could see the side of your car, I could instantly tell you if it's actually a '70 model just by the type of sidemarker lights on it, as 1970 sidelights were unique & a 1-year-only feature.

For comparison, this is the rear of a '73:

 

[Jeff Stich]

They have removed the license plate lights from the end of the bumpers and replaced them with that large plate.

It's a stock '73 rear bumper, complete with inboard black plastic end caps.

The over rider was a typical after market bar added by dealers or sold mail order. I think the company that sold the bars was Amoco.

Amoco was an Indiana-based oil/chemical company.

Amco was an aftermarket "sports car accessories" supplier, who furnished us with those lovely overider bar kits (where's the "roll-eyes" emoticon when you need it???). The Amco rear bar for the 850 Spider actually went full width across the rear & wrapped around the corners a bit before curving down to the top of the bumper. Pretty hideous, but they were fairly effective in low-speed impacts.

The Amco 850 Spider rear bar in all its glory:

 

[Austin]

The title says it's a 1970 but no telling what's been done in terms of transplants. The seller is vague when asked and doesn't respond when pressed.

I couldn't take many photos last night as the transport arrived late and kind of bungled the off load but here's a few.

About the side markers - I notice they stand proud of the sheet metal instead of being flush. Normal?

https://imgur.com/a/hKP1C

 

[Austin]

Chassis number suggests it's indeed a 1970 (or started life as one)


As for the license plate mount, it's also shared with the Lancia Beta, which was my last "fun" car.

 

[Jeff Stich]

The title says it's a 1970 but no telling what's been done in terms of transplants. The seller is vague when asked and doesn't respond when pressed. I couldn't take many photos last night as the transport arrived late and kind of bungled the off load but here's a few...

I hesitate to suggest it, but there may be reasons the seller is sketchy about this.

The dashboard assembly is 1973, & the heater box assembly is 1973-only, as is the 3-arm steering column switch unit. The front turn-signal mounting is 1973 style (attached to car body) vs. 1970 style (attached to underside of front bumper) - they share the same lamps but use different brackets. These can all be reasonable "transplant" items for a 1970 car that was missing everything & then reassembled using a '73 donor car, but the sidemarker lights on this car are not the 1970 type, *nor are the holes in the body for them - 1970 are wider to accommodate the 1970-only type sidemarker. Lastly, *the holes in the fenders for the outer bumper-tip mounting bolts on your car are in a '73 location vs. '70 (ie: higher up), as the later years were required to have the bumpers mounted higher per Federal regulations. (*=red flag)

 

[Jeff Stich]

Chassis number suggests it's indeed a 1970 (or started life as one)

Compare the VIN on this firewall tag to your vehicle registration papers, & to the stamped VIN found in the following areas on the car:

Upper firewall:

Door opening/B-post tag:

Dashboard/windshield base tag:

Front hood air intake scoop: stamped in the center on the back of the scoop (the side visible with hood opened). It's reasonable that this VIN may be different, as it might be a replacement hood from a donor car (of any year), but it can support the actual VIN if it matches all the others on the car.

Also check the model year stated on the Federal Emissions/Tune-up Info plate that is riveted to the firewall just above the radiator (fresh rivets or screws holding this plate to the firewall are a red flag). The model year should be stated twice on the lower right, like this:

 

[kmead]

Told you someone would come me along with the info you needed figured Jeff would be the one.

Definitely not a 70, could be a 71 given it's build date as the side markers are not right for a 70.

Make sure you get a set of engine pans to make it cool properly. The fan pulls air through the radiator from under the car and pressurized the engine compartment. The pan under the water pump keeps the fan from recycling the hot air.

A little different from most cars but it works well when properly set up.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Definitely not a 70, could be a 71 given it's build date as the side markers are not right for a 70.

The '70 VINs ranged from 67118 to 90089, so the number on this VIN tag is indeed for a '70 model. But I get a feeling this tag may not belong to this chassis.

 

[Austin]

Well, curiouser and curiouser. It would appear to be a 1973. Early, but not THAT early. Looks like I need to have a chat with seller.

VIN plate matches dash VIN, but chassis plate in door missing and stamped chassis number is correct for 73. At least both VINs check out as not stolen or salvage.

The best I can tell the engine number is 4146348. Can't find a reference to what the correct range of engine numbers would be for 73.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Well, curiouser and curiouser. It would appear to be a 1973. Early, but not THAT early.

1973 850 Spider model-year VINs ranged from 123905 to 130862, if that helps you narrow it down a bit.

Looks like I need to have a chat with seller.

I would say so! That'll be an interesting conversation...

VIN plate matches dash VIN, but chassis plate in door missing and stamped chassis number is correct for 73.

This would indicate that the car is indeed a '73 model, as according to the DMV, the stamped firewall VIN normally takes precedence over any removable/replaceable VIN tags (ie: firewall tag & dash tag). Does the stamped VIN on the hood also match the VIN stamped into the firewall? What year is written on the emissions/tune-up tag above the radiator? (I'm betting '73?)

Looks like a/the previous owner tried to basically "rebody" their 1970 Spider by simply attaching its VIN tags (& title) to a 1973 Spider, completely ignoring the fact that there are stamped VINs on the car to contend with, not to mention the various 1-year-only equipment/trim differences between some 850 Spiders (as noted in my previous posts).

At least both VINs check out as not stolen or salvage.

That's very good news, at least. My initial worry was that the seller had sold you a "re-VIN'd" stolen ('73) car. But the fact remains that you now have a (technically) illegal car if the DMV or police ever had reason to check the stamped VIN against the registered VIN. That kind of stuff can have the car impounded asap.

Obviously, a/the previous owner intentionally changed the 2 VIN tags (since you have to remove the dash in order to reach the 2 rivets that hold the dash tag to the windshield frame). How or why, we can only speculate. Knowingly or not, the seller has committed a crime by doing this & by selling you this car. This might very well explain his previous "apprehension" when you asked him for more details on the car?

With the '70 title in your hand, you simply own a piece of paper, & the car itself could (theoretically) be reclaimed by anyone still having the '73's title in hand. I'd almost be afraid to ask the DMV how to remedy the situation...? (One thing for sure: ask first over the phone, not in person at the DMV)

The best I can tell the engine number is 4146348. Can't find a reference to what the correct range of engine numbers would be for 73.

You can find the stamped engine type & Serial number on the front face of the engine block. Depending on the year, this info will be located either on the upper/left corner (above the timing chain cover & to the left of the engine mount), or the lower right corner (to the right of the timing cover & below the alternator-mounting studs). The later cars have this info on the upper/left, you may have to move the metal bracket holding the fuel hose there. The engine type should be 100GBS.040 & the Serial number just below it (this info is stamped sideways on the block).

I can't find my chassis/year vs. engine # chart right now, but IIRC, the '73's were at least Serial #2103165-on? (That's the "late" 903cc engine with a pressurized center main).

While we're talking engines, I noticed that engine mounting bracket in your pic is from an 850 Sedan/Coupe/Sport Coupe, but I can't see enough of the rest of the engine to make out if it's an 817cc or 903cc unit. Might be a 903 from a Sport Coupe? The stamped info on the block face will tell us all that.

 

[Austin]

Well, we'll see what the seller states on the bill of sale, which should arrive Tuesday. Worse case scenario, I'm not out a lot of money. But will be plenty pissed.

I had noticed the welded repairs to the engine hanger bracket. What is the difference in mount from Spider to Coupe?

 

[Rod Midkiff]

Another thought. Do a possessory lean on the stamped vin so you get a title for that vin.

 

[kmead]

I had noticed the welded repairs to the engine hanger bracket. What is the difference in mount from Spider to Coupe?

The engine support on the removable rear pan often tears on a Spider. Many of them have had to be welded to hold the engine up.

The Spider mount uses a rubber bush that fits into a somewhat smaller aluminum casting attached to the engine in the exact same spot that the one you have right now does. The rubber bush puts a fair amount of force vertically as you accelerate, decelerate and as the engine twists relative to the two transmission mounts, into the sheet metal pan back there and causes the tearing out of the welds or fatigue failure of the steel around the weldment. I have always seen it as an engineering error by the folks at Bertone.

The Sedan mount, which the Coupe shares, has a couple of smaller rubber bushes and a spring that suspends the engine weight and a secondary torque arm that goes from the eyelet on the aluminum engine mount to a second part of the Sedan or Coupe's back panel. The spring allows the engine to move up and down a fair amount but the overall result seems to be less fatigue on the panel that supports the engine as the twisting moment isn't applied to the panel in a way that tries to twist the support off the panel.

The negative of the Sedan mount is that there is more compliance in the driveline as the spring compresses and then unloads. It has never bothered me though I would like to get a new spring at some point as I suspect the nearly 50 year old one that has been holding it up all these years is a bit tired. They are still available.

 

[Jeff Stich]

Well, we'll see what the seller states on the bill of sale, which should arrive Tuesday. Worse case scenario, I'm not out a lot of money. But will be plenty pissed.

Just curious...any update on this? Did you receive the Title/Bill of Sale for the car? If so, which VIN does it match?

I had noticed the welded repairs to the engine hanger bracket. What is the difference in mount from Spider to Coupe?

I was referring to the alloy mounting bracket that bolts onto the engine block, just above the timing cover. That's a Sedan/Coupe style bracket that you have on your Spider.

 

[Austin]

Title and Bill of sale match visible VIN. If worse comes to worse, can have a mobile VIN verification certify that the car is the one titled from Nevada, so this will work out.
But first I have to do battle with my homeowner's association claiming the car is "inoperable" though it isn't.
By the way, is this steering wheel anything special? I hate it and will happily trade for a stock one.

 

[Rod Midkiff]

save your self some major head ach and just move out of any homeowners associations. Do youtube/google searches on the people who live under their rules.