My X1/9 ownership conundrum

Ananda

True Classic
Since I wrecked my Mini in July, the X1/9 has been my daily driver. Given that I am a beginner mechanic and that I don’t have a garage or driveway, I am finally starting to wake up to some of the realities of owning a classic car. As the kinks have been ironed out enough for it to become a decent daily driver, I have grown to really appreciate this car, a lot. I would like to hold onto and keep improving it. That is the dream. However the more I love this car, the more I want the best for it and it is dawning on me that I may not be the best for it. Sitting out in the rain may not be the best for it. This is the conundrum. Do I keep loving it and pray that I don’t end up ruining it or do I find a more worthy caretaker and search for a less special guinea pig to experiment on.
I’m putting this out to the group because I am curious to see what people think and I’m hoping to rouse some collective wisdom that may help me find some clarity.
 
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If you care for it and are willing to keep it up I see no reason. How often does it actually rain in Oakland? My ‘85 existed for years in LA with sprinklers regularly stirring the detritus from an olive tree around on its paintwork, since then is has been garage most of the time but when it has been my more or less daily, it has sat in the rain and in west Michigan it rains a fair amount.

It’s a car and at the moment its not worth so much that you are losing value by using it in the normal fashion for a car of this sort. Being a Bertone it is pretty well rust proofed. I would take out the front fender liners and ensure there is no packed in dirt etc back there that could encourage rust and verify that all the drain holes in the rockers and doors are clean and free.

There are no guarantees the next owner will be any better than you. For most of my life I have not had a formal garage I could work on my cars so the driveways of my apartment parking lot and then my house have been the repair domain I have inhabited. The next owner, for the most part, doesn’t know the car any better than you, they just payed you some money to gain it. Unless I buy it in which case I likely know even less :D (no I won’t buy it because I already have two and am already in the doghouse for not selling one as was agreed to...)

Having a few manuals which are pretty cheap or free on the internet, a fairly basic set of tools and you can pretty much take care of most of the ills of an X. You can pretty much take the entire car apart with an 8, 10,13, 15,17 and 19mm socket/wrench set. (Its good to have a few more just because you can never have too many tools). Learning about the car and coming here to read posts about how others have done about something and then asking what you don’t know or don’t understand is completely within the bounds of why we are all here on the XWeb.

It really comes down to how interested are you in becoming a fledgling mechanic and spending your time that way or having the money to pay someone to do it (which I don’t suggest).

Personally I would suggest getting another low cost, high reliability daily driver (a CamCord or similar) to have as a partial daily and back up. For 3 grand you can get a pretty decent car out there (in the land of sun and mild weather) that will likely serve you just fine for a long while and keep you out of payments. My dailies are 15 and 18 years old with a fair amount of miles on them, I did buy them new so they are kept up with and allow me to have classic cars in addition.

Its up to you, we don’t live the life you do, but I see you as someone who could be an X owner for a long time if you so chose.
 
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"Maybe buy a second one and pick one to "ruin" and the other to preserve. X19's in general are really cheap cars and there's tons of them out there."

Agree.


In Quebec, it's not a good idea to drive an X1/9 all year long. Too much snow and too cold. But while my "collector" X1/9 was restored (for a TOO long time) I finaly acquired a daily driver (X1/9). This is making a lot of sense as long as IT IS a driver, not another car needing restoration. For the last 9 years, I drove it regularly to work and on week-end, just keeping it driveable. After all, my time shoud be dedicated to my X 1/9 in restoration. Owning both is making a lot of sense. Lot of spare wheels/tires, parts that could be transferred while waiting the parts to come in the mail, many spares I got in the basement, etc. and a good knowledge of the car + the possibility to look on the other one to remember how things were put together. After 9 years, I had to repair the muffler once, did the Brown wire modification and changed both electric window switches and the light switch. All parts I already had as spares. Finally, at the end of last summer, the BOSCH FI computer quit, and this was the only part I didn't had as spare. So it was the first time it had to sit waiting for a repair. The question remaining will be: when my "collector" X1/9 will hit the road, will I keep the daily driver? Maybe for a restoration...
 
You probably won't find any collective wisdom here, more like divergent wisdom. First and foremost, it's just a car. You either enjoy it as your daily driver or you don't. If you do like it as a daily and it's not breaking down on you on a frustrating basis then you have met the basic requirements of keeping it. You are not hurting the car by driving it.
 
Enjoy driving it and tinkering/improving it to keep it going (more pressure than pleasure if you need it as a daily driver) or tinker / improve it at your leisure and drive something else daily.
 
Have previously owned several exxes as the only daily driver for decades. They do fine in daily driver duty long as they are properly cared for. Do know all exxes on the road today are decades older and all will need varying amounts of effort and resources to bring them up to what they once were.

Having the ability to wrench on and care for an exxe has one very great advantage over any modern vehicle, DIY repairability and service. The exxe is not complex. There is essentially a very good chassis, manual brakes, manual transmission, basic engine with maybe EFI. The electrical system is not that complex. All this is very agreeable for the DIY'er. For many modern cars, it must be plugged into a specific 'puter with specific software to have a bit discussion about what might the difficulty might be. This communications demands the sensors involved are healthy and can yak in coherent data. Some car brands have data com links between engine-gear-box-chassis via CAN-Bus that impose proper secure code before any operation can happen. In cases like this replacing a major oily bit like a gear box can render it non-op due to the new gear boxes incorrect data code relative to the rest of the CAN-Bus system. This forces a return to the vehicle brand's dealership for the specialized attention.

Do know, the majority of modern production cars are specifically designed to be disposable due to the proliferation of plastic parts, non-servicable parts, parts that have been highly engineered to wear out at a known service life.

Idea of this is much about forcing the replacement of vehicles after 3-5 years of service life, good for their bottom line and all related, not so good for owner-driver and ....


DIY exxe ownership can free one from all this. Is there a learning curve involved, absolutely. Worth the time, effort, resources involved, that is very much an individual decision.

Bernice
 
The X1/9 is the most fun car that I have ever driven. It has a mid engine configuration, has 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, rack & pinion steering, an easily removable & easily storable top, and by 81 had multi port fuel injection & a 5 speed transmission. There aren't very many cars from the day that can claim all these features and still have a reasonable price tag. Like several others have said, they are relatively simple to work on, too. Even the fuel injection is relatively simple, but also very effective, compared to newer stuff. Our 81 passed emissions by a very wide margin when we brought it home, and we didn't even have time to tune it up.
Like every other car out there, the X has it's issues & idiosyncrasies. We make a choice when we decide which car's "stuff" we want to deal with, along with the enjoyment we get out of them. For us, the X1/9 is a "no brainer". There are a lot of other people here that apparently feel the same way.
Good luck with your decision.
PS-I sold my first one 29 years ago and missed it most of the time until we bought another one. We currently have two of them.:)
 
It is hard to put my finger on what exactly I like most about my X1/9. Two things that first pop into mind is the noise, not the exhaust, but this mechanical whir that I find intoxicating, kind of like a land speeder on Dantooine. The other is being able to drive legal speeds around town, sliding the rear end around corners like Bullitt, safely and conscientiously of course. Sometimes I just drive around the block even though it’s a gauntlet of speed bumps. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to drive it much outside of the rally-like conditions of the streets of Oakland.
 
Another advantage of owning the X (or any other classic Fiat) is the fact the forums are extremely informative on how to repair even the most mundane problems. I'm sure the VW GTI forums would not help me figure out why the interior door lock switch on my driver door won't unlock the passenger door.
 
I will say that the forum for my last car was an ego fest for the ages which I don’t miss. And that if I ever sold the Bertone I would continue to follow this one. Respect, friendliness, humor, education and helpfulness.
 
A few notes to draw perhaps no truly helpful conclusion:

1. The online Fiat enthusiast world will completely spoil you for any other one. I started via the old Italian Car Digest (remember mailing lists, anyone?), then Mirafiori & more recently here. In the interim, I've been part of groups focused on Mercedes, BMW, VW, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan D21 trucks, even Ford trucks (basically, pretty much any vehicle that a family member has owned) and I concur that if Carl DID even get any helpful information about his door locks, it would be after hearing multiple comments to use Google, to search the forum or that generally he was not doing something right (but never offering any of the off-the-top-of-the-head knowledge that I KNOW anyone who's into VWs for the long haul has a lot of.

2. My experience, starting in college when I opted for 2 "interesting" cars vs. one practical one is that the cars confer with one another over night & try to time breakages in a way to leave you often stranded or frustrated. It's not the end of the world, but I'd throw expecting to always be able to commute in your old car (or multiples) off the list of expectations & instead appreciate the days when you can. Don't worry, those days of appreciation will be the norm, but every so often, something little comes up & life/weather/timing/budget may leave the car parked for a day or two.

3. For about a decade or so of my Fiat enthusiast experience, I had a work-issued vehicle to use to commute & any trip that was attached to the commute (ie, errands, stop at the grocery, kid logistics, etc.). That allowed me to indulge in owning cars for which I did not have to worry about any being operable on any given day. This was a blessing & a curse. It was probably convenient early on when my family & hobby operating budgets were small. Later, it became a burden to be able to put ENOUGH miles on the Fiats to keep them healthy. For the last 8 or so years, I've not had the work commuter car and ultimately, that's been a great thing for me. (not so great for folks who work for me who also no longer have this & it represents a larger % of operating costs for them & they don't have 8-9 cars at home...a couple actually had to buy commuter beaters when the change went down.)

4. Fiats are rather easy to work on and in my experience (hope I don't seriously jinx myself) pretty reliable once they are sorted & if you give them the level of care & routine maintenance/inspection pretty much any car of their era should get. Tools help. I started about 30 years ago with the philosophy of buying the right tools (including reference materials) to do jobs correctly. Coming from a zero base knowledge childhood, that meant that early on I had to do a few jobs twice to get them right. Still, it was cheaper than hiring out and afterwards I had an increased knowledge base and the tools. Two factors that help there are that I usually enjoy working on cars - it's almost therapeutic. Also, I'm an engineer, so I probably have an orientation to mechanical things that's helpful. I've taken both those for granted and found myself confused when trying to help car enthusiast friends who seem utterly overwhelmed...so, I always recommend knowing yourself & what you WANT to do. If you don't want to do the work yourself & sometimes have your social plans changed because you need to fix something, but you still want to own a classic Fiat & rely on it as a daily, then plan on having a lot of money to pay someone. (multiple cars help here...modern beater or whatever).

5. While I agree that some cars are quite special & perhaps are best suited for fair weather use only, these are also relatively inexpensive (and quite CHEAP compared to the enjoyment factor) cars. If you maintain the car and take reasonable precautions to prevent rust, I'd say not only is driving your car regularly not bad for your car, it's GOOD for it. Your car will almost certainly be in better running condition than any of the beautiful trailer/garage queen cars, and for me THAT (and the inherent experience of actually enjoying vs. encapsulating it) is what it's all about.

6. I went through a similar thing with my own "fleet" over the last few years. While i've always owned multiple Fiats, I had actually sold off a few, along with my niche E28 535is BMW & bought a new VW TDi Sportwagen in 2014. The TDi was sort of my non-Fiat dream car that I'd wanted since long before that model even existed & this one was special ordered with some nice wheels, all the options & a 6 speed MT. Then a couple years & about 40K miles into the weird world of owning a "new" car that was under warranty, the whole EPA/VW scandal broke & the short story is that VW bought my car back and I got something like 99% of my money back. I thought I might NOT replace it with another newish car and instead drive my Fiats (augmented in theory by getting Carl's cool 128 wagon). In the process I also "sold" my very nice '71 124 Spider via Ebay. Through an odd series of events, that Spider came back to me, a 124 Coupe that I had sold locally came back to me & I ended up acquiring two slightly derelict X1/9s locally. The end analysis on my part was that I probably just needed to actually *drive* the cars regularly. In particular, the thought of selling a super-nice Pininfarina bodied sports car for the same amount some dumb parent in my neighborhood had spent on a 2 seater ATV their kids were driving around the neighborhood at midnight one night really hit me....why not put another 100K miles on the car and then maybe after that I'll sell it for whatever the market value is, which will probably be more than I was going to sell it for today! Anyway, along w/ my "official daily" 1995 F150 w/ 224K miles, I have a whole bunch of Fiats that I can drive with semi-regularity and use as they were originally intended - as cars.

I'd say after thinking about the kind of involvement/experience you want out of the car, if you're still in, go for it! I tend to opt for my F150 at times like the last few weeks when the local highway departments are dousing the roads with salt & brine, but that's not going to be an issue for you. Have fun & good luck!
 
The reality is, the market has yet to find and value these wonderful little cars as "collectible". While we'd all like to see the value of our X's appreciate, until they do, we all own very fun, very cheap cars. Keep them - drive them. Selling a "driver" X won't change anyone's financial condition appreciably.

There's no other vehicle on the road today that offers more "bang for the buck". I have two X's. One is fully restored and sits covered in my garage next to my other "garage queen" - a like new 1997 Acura NSX that rarely see the light of day. My other X is a great daily driver - a 1985 red/black that sits in my driveway and gets driven on a very regular basis. It puts a bigger smile on my face that does any of my other cars. Its just fun to drive, nice to be seen in, always draws looks and comments and because its not "perfect", I don't feel the need to wash it every time I take it out. its lack of perfection is what makes it so enjoyable.

But a cheap cover and keep the car. You won't regret it but you'll probably regret selling it for years to come.

Ed
 
The reality is, the market has yet to find and value these wonderful little cars as "collectible". While we'd all like to see the value of our X's appreciate, until they do, we all own very fun, very cheap cars. Keep them - drive them. Selling a "driver" X won't change anyone's financial condition appreciably.

I don't think the US market will ever find them valuable/collectible. Why?

Bertone made too many of them. They made about 160,000 for the US market. There's never going to be enough demand to drive up prices considerably considering that supply. For example,the reason why old Model T's are so incredibly cheap compared to other cars from that era is because Ford made over a million of them.

Another example is the MKII MR2. Toyota made ~26,000 for the US market. People in the MR2 community have wondered for years why the MKII MR2 is not appreciating at the same rate as the Supra (with a US production count of about 11,000). The answer is Toyota made too many MKII MR2s. Anyone who wants one, can easily go find one and have a ton of examples to choose from.

By comparison anyone who wants a X1/9 can easily go find one and they'll have a continuously refreshing supply to choose from. Why pay $10,000 for an X1/9, when 10 others in similar condition are selling for less than $4,000? And other 10 will be listed next month . . . and more the following month.

I'm actually really happy that the X1/9 is so cheap. This car is truly an Italian exotic standing on the same podium as Lamborghini's, Lancia's, and Ferrari's of the period. The only difference between those cars and the X1/9 is the production numbers. The same people that designed and built those cars, designed and built the X1/9. The X1/9 has racing pedigree - it was pulled from rallying partly due to the concerns of it putting too much pressure on the Stratos. The X1/9 chassis borrows extensively from the platforms used by some of those cars, and some of those cars borrow extensively from the X1/9 platform (the Ferrari GT4 and Stratos are the best examples). It was the 2nd production mid-engine car ever produced with the Miura being the first. The same parts bin was used for all of these cars.

If the Stratos had a production run of 160,000, it'd be in the same boat as the X1/9 right now in terms of market value.

I'll probably never be able to own a Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or a Stratos, but I'm easily able afford an X1/9. I've started to lose the lust for vintage Italian exotics because I've come to realize I already own one.

EDIT: And an added bonus is I never have to worry about keeping the miles low in order to retain value. I can drive it as much and as hard as I like.
 
At risk of devolving this conversation to something different, I presume the above would be saying that the Fiat 124/2k Spider is not in that collectible market area also? Collectible or not, neither of these fall into the price range where they cost more than a lot of people to expect to pay for a ho-hum commuter/appliance car that will be worth it's value in scrap in another 5-10 years.
 
Drive what you like. Honestly. Life is short, enjoy it. I daily drove my VW camper for years before I could afford a house with a garage to put it in. Situations change and when you look back you'll be glad to have had such a long relationship with a car you love.
 
Collector desirability-Marker value is more often than not is determined by perceived value by those who are interested. Rarity alone often does not decide value, or value is very much in the eye of it's beholder.

About 1800 Lancia Scorpions imported to the US circa 76'-77' yet the vast majority of them remain in the undesirable cheap-heap category. Similar applies to the early 80's Lancia Zagato and there are many others.

Perceived market value is often created by the manufacture by marketing events such as racing then racing to win at any cost. Production based race cars that have very little if any commonality with their show room floor origins that have been completely de-designed and built to win races that do well provide a "Halo Effect"on the entire brand and model offering. Once this brand identity has been created and ingrained into the mind of their fans this belief becomes very difficult to change. Even if the manufacture's current offering is total and utter de-contented to penny pinched till it screams disposable junk. The perceived value and Social Status desirability remains.

Add to this, individual experiences with these moto-cars creating emotionally connected memories of a given moto. These are greater factor that decide and determine market value and collect-ablity than production numbers of units sold into the market alone.


Bernice





I don't think the US market will ever find them valuable/collectible. Why?

Bertone made too many of them. They made about 160,000 for the US market. There's never going to be enough demand to drive up prices considerably considering that supply. For example,the reason why old Model T's are so incredibly cheap compared to other cars from that era is because Ford made over a million of them.
 
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