New Bertone Runabout

A couple of years ago I saw a YouTube video about Dallara's take on making their own car. One of the points that was made was that the biggest hurdle to overcome in low-production car design and manufacture, getting engines thru the emission approval process, could be completely sidestepped by boutique Carrozziere if they used electric propulsion. The car in question, the Dallara Stradale, eventually was made with a production engine acquired from Ford (the 2.3 turbo from the Focus RS), but it is still a valid observation.

And just this morning, YouTube showed me a video from Top Gear on a new prototype from Toyota, a mid-"engined" 2-place electric sports car that could eventually be a 2030 MR2.

I think the audience for the type of car the Dallara Stradale is would not be buyers of a purely electric car. However, I can see Toyota leveraging mass production electric powerplants into low-but-still-mass-production offerings if, as the TG video stated, there were to be performance versions of the powerplant offered. I think there will be buyers for such a car.
 
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ecohen2 said:
Somehow I managed to get on the Bertone email list and was sent this:

The all-new Bertone RUNABOUT – a neo-retro masterpiece | Bertone

The return of a 1969 design icon: Bertone RUNABOUT revives the legendary Autobianchi A112 Runabout with timeless style and modern innovation.
bertone.it bertone.it

Nice!
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The black flying buttress-looking part behind the targa bar looks a little clumsy in the side profile drawing, creating an odd insect-like rounded hump that really clashes with the straight lines of the car. But it looks more palatable in the final rear-overhead shot, so I think it's going to be one of those have-to-see-it-in-person deals to really get a feel for it. I would like the targa bar to have a little more forward leaning angle too....:cool:
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
A couple of years ago I saw a YouTube video about Dallara's take on making their own car. One of the points that was made was that the biggest hurdle to overcome in low-production car design and manufacture, getting engines thru the emission approval process, could be completely sidestepped by boutique Carrozziere if they used electric propulsion. The car in question, the Dallara Stradale, eventually was made with a production engine acquired from Ford (the 2.3 turbo from the Focus RS), but it is still a valid observation.
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Having been involved with this very thing in the last few years I can tell you that without a $100+M development program you are not building your own engine for a production car. And that doesn't include the emissions testing costs/time.

And just as big a hurdle is the safety issues. Safety system engineering and testing is another $100+M.

The alternative to this is the route we took, and why you see so many cars that are re-imagined versions of previous enthusiast cars. Its much easier to build a "replica" of an older design and escape much of the safety standards. Then use an already certified driveline from another production car. The 2.3 EcoBoost Ford is an excellent example; 300HP/TQ in a reliable, light, compact, and easily packaged, ready to install assembly with a world-wide parts/service network.
 
Interesting concept in the Bertone article. I actually like the "coupe" version shown in the photos under the "design inspiration" section. We've seen several concept drawings of what a reimagined 'modern' X1/9 would look like. And some were very similar to this Runabout design.

Dan, I agree with you about a electric version of certain classic retro designs not being well received. The typical admirer of those older designs are also older, and a lot of us old guys just aren't into electric vehicles all that much. :D
 
Interesting. Keep the curb weight under 3000# and the power around 200hp. Price it in the $55K range (yeah cars are expensive these days). I think you would have something there.

Doubtful we will see one in the states.
 
Moto fans tend to obsess over engines, part of an obsession with power & acceleration via right foot... the easies to access aspect of moto performance.

There was a time when it was difficult to get power out of any given vintage Dino juice burner.. that time and era has long past decades ago.
Today, virtually any level or amount of power is easily available at modest cost for any given power level. There was a time when any specific moto brand made their brand identity by the vintage Dino juice burner offerings, Ferrari as an example based their brand identity on 12 cylinder motos. Porsche flat 6, Detroit Hugo displacement V8s... and so on..

One of the very best real world examples of how moto folks overly obsess over vintage Dino juice burner power and brand is at the 24 Hours of LeMons where engine swaps are extremely common.. Often based on street-road-daily drive experience.. once did, the LeMons team discovers there is a vast difference between real world endurance racing -vs- street-road-daily driver oily bits.. Majority of these engine swaps are total and utter failures, this is why most any engine swap LeMons racer is put in Class C...

Yet, the engine centric mentality persist.. When Lotus introduced the Elise with the Toyota four pot, there was un-ending criticism of why Lotus did not make their own engine/transaxle.. and how it is "just Toyota oily bits" years since then, real world proof has been in the enduing goodness of Toyota oily bits in the Elise..

What is almost never appreciated by moto fans is the vast amount of $ investment & resources required to design/produce any vintage Dino juice burner of merit today. There is vast projection of how "easy" this must be.. yet those voices have never been deeply involved in any vintage Dino juice burner development or chassis/suspension and many other aspects of moto design.

There is about zero wrong with the FORD Eco-Boost, this is a well proven design with good support and parts availability, yet moto fans Poo-Poo the FORD for being nothing special and deserving of only being used in an Econo-Box.. simply not true or correct.

Fact is mid-engine chassis motos have very distinct and real market dis-advantages. Their inherent dynamics are a legal liability and not appreciated by the larger body of moto fans. It is directly related to why chassis/suspension excellence in vintage designs like the exxe and others are Poo-Poo_ed, how much media verbiage has been focused on how "slow" the exxe is with much lesser verbiage about the chassis/suspension excellence? Keep in mind, most moto fans might be able to extract 7/10 possible chassis/suspension performance out of any mid-engine chassis moto, it demands a world class and experienced driver to extract 10/10 to 10.3/10 out of a mid-engine chassis. Majority of moto fans are not at this level of driving skill and ability.. Greatly negating any real world advantage of an mid-engine layout moto..

~Or why powerful oily bits oriented towards straight line acceleration sells big.

The other aspect that sells, visual appeal. Same reason why wheels/tires being part of visual appeal is commonly done as one of the fist moto
"improvements" by moto fans.. Yet, once behind the wheel, the visuals rapidly become much secondary.. with the driver ergonomics and moto dynamics taking priority..
Of the current mid-engine motos on the market today two that really sand out:

~Dallara Stradale.
~Gordon Murray T50

There are others like the Radical SR8...
Market for motos on this level is very, very, very small..

Market for "luxury" two seaters like Porsche and such is much larger.. for a long list of marketing driven realities.



Bernice
 
Rupunzell said:
There is about zero wrong with the FORD Eco-Boost, this is a well proven design with good support and parts availability, yet moto fans Poo-Poo the FORD for being nothing special and deserving of only being used in an Econo-Box.. simply not true or correct.
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We chose the 2.3 EcoBoost for our Cardinal track car. While that engine doesn't have much of a performance reputation it has demonstrated exactly that. I have thousands of laps around about a dozen different racetracks in a 2.3 EcoBoost powered Cardinal. It always impresses with its capability.

Engines are a big part of the driving experience of enthusiast cars and this has been proven over and over in the market place. Great cars powered by less than inspiring engines seldom do well. The Fiero with the 2.4 4 cylinder and later the equally uninspiring 2.8 V6 are noteable. If GM had put the Quad 4 in the car it might have been successfull. Electric motors lack the "driving experience" quotient of internal combustion engines. Example of an engine making an otherwise mundane car an enthusiast Icon is the Integra Type R. A simple Honda Civic platform that got a wing, upgraded trim, suspension and the VTEC B series. Instant legend. I own a Toyota Celica GTS. Its a very good FWD platform but the 2ZZ-GE engine transforms the car. Its one of the best engines I have driven in the last 30 years and is more rewarding to drive than the Honda K20/24. Electric motors, despite their power capabilities, do not provide the passion enthusiast expect in their driving experience.
 
I would buy a two seater, mid-battery sports car in a heartbeat. A while back there was an Alfa 4C with a Yamaha electric motor in it that appeared to have great performance. That seemed like a great combination if they could keep the range up. And yes, I own a 4C and I love the engine but there is more to it.

For me, the sound is one part of the driving experience. The bigger part of the driving experience is the actual act of driving. What kills the fun for me on a bunch of electric cars is you don’t have any control over what makes you go fast, you just mash the pedal and hold on. I think the act of driving is what I miss in most of the electric car. There is something about shifting at the exact right RPM as quick as you can that is the missing fun variable. It is the difference between a manual and an automatic even more exaggerated.

So why would I take an electric 4C? The 4C “fun” is more about the handling and braking than it is about the acceleration. Paddle shifters are just 1/2 a notch more engaging than no shifting. Having an electric drivetrain would just make you focus on the fun aspect of the car, the perfect line…

Yeah yeah, I know this isn’t for everyone but it really depends on what car you are putting the electric drivetrain in. Obviously if you are looking for quiet and comfort, electric is a great answer. If you want massive amount of torque it is also a great way to go, but those are both obvious….

This is one of the videos:
 
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