No Start Frustration, 1983 X1/9

BrioPA said:
Not even a chuff
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And you are certain the flywheel isn’t 180 out and as a result the timing of ignition is happening on an empty cylinder?

When I brought my 85 back from an extended slumber the injectors were gummed up and I used starting fluid to get it going initially, it fired every time on that stuff.
 
I'm verifying the timing against the crank and cam pulley marks. Those pulleys are keyed so they can't go on wrong, IIRC. The flywheel may be 180° out, but since I'm not using those marks, it shouldn't matter, right?
 
BrioPA said:
I'm verifying the timing against the crank and cam pulley marks. Those pulleys are keyed so they can't go on wrong, IIRC. The flywheel may be 180° out, but since I'm not using those marks, it shouldn't matter, right?
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If you are checking timing against the crank pully mark, keep in mind that the scale it is checked against is adjustable so if it was not set correctly can be off. I calibrated mine against the flywheel marks before relying on it.
 
BrioPA said:
I'm verifying the timing against the crank and cam pulley marks. Those pulleys are keyed so they can't go on wrong, IIRC. The flywheel may be 180° out, but since I'm not using those marks, it shouldn't matter, right?
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Yes and no :D

Know that the crank pully mark is literally cast in iron, but those sheet metal pointers are mounted in such a way that they can be off by 5-10 degrees which could be the difference between start and no start.

Also know that the most accurate timing marks are on the flywheel, BUT if removed during your refresh (or by any previous owner or shop), the bolt pattern is such that it could have conceivably been installed 180 degrees out. If your crank hash mark and its sheet metal pointer are reasonably/generally pointing at themselves and yet the flywheel dot is nowhere to be found even by a little extra rotation to and fro, this is the likely scenario and unless you want to split the engine and tranny and reclock the flywheel, ya gotta live with it.

Soooooo the best scenario is this: the crank pulley hash mark more or less aligns with the sheet metal pointers AND you can simultaneously see the dot on the outer rim of the flywheel somewhere in the "window" on the bell housing.

In that scenario, your most accurate timing is done using the dot on the flywheel and its relationship to the hash marks cast under the bell housing window.

It's my belief that the dot and window were put there to facilitate setting ignition timing on the versions of the SOHC engine that came in other FIAT models where the distributor was mounted on the end of the camshaft, such distributor of course would be locate just above the window in the bell housing.

If you find yourself in the "flywheel's off by 180" camp, do the best you can with the crank pulley and pointers.
 
If you find yourself in the 180 out situation one can verify TDC by removing the crank pulley and referencing the cast in mark in the on the seal carrier relative to the gear and woodruff key in the crank.

You can then put the pulley back on and verify the placement of the timing quadrant as it will now be accurately at TDC.

IMG_1500.jpegIMG_1501.jpeg
 
BrioPA said:
Thanks, very helpful!
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I don’t recall if we have discussed the use of the Fiat Fuel Injection Diagnosis Guide which is available here in the Wiki. I presume you have it but haven’t stated you have referenced it.

FuelInjectionTroubleshooting - X1/9 Wiki

xwebforums.com xwebforums.com

I do have a very nice PDF copy which is a good bit cleaner than the one in the Wiki but the base information is the same.

Lots of other info in the same spot for fuel injection (and carbs :) ) : https://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=FuelSystem
 
kmead said:
I don’t recall if we have discussed the use of the Fiat Fuel Injection Diagnosis Guide which is available here in the Wiki. I presume you have it but haven’t stated you have referenced it.

FuelInjectionTroubleshooting - X1/9 Wiki

xwebforums.com xwebforums.com

I do have a very nice PDF copy which is a good bit cleaner than the one in the Wiki but the base information is the same.

Lots of other info in the same spot for fuel injection (and carbs :) ) : https://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=FuelSystem
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Good question, and yes, I have downloaded a couple of versions of this (there's also one on Mirafiori.com). I've completed basic trouble shooting, and appear to be getting fuel flow to the rebuilt injectors. Pump is definitely working, filter and all rubber fuel lines are new. I'll review and make sure I didn't miss anything. Thanks for the link!
 
BrioPA said:
Pleased to report that with new coil and plug leads, and playing around with the ignition timing, the X started! A combination of weak spark, and timing off just enough…..
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Thanks for reporting back the solution to the problem. Always good to know what ended up working.
 
JimD said:
Low hanging fruit: I know you checked everything twice, but is the injector trigger wire hooked to the coil? It has a piggy back connector in the middle of the wire. It can appear hooked up at both ends, but that piggy back has to go to the coil. It goes to a spade on one of the coil posts. Without that wire, the engine will crank forever, but never fire off.

View attachment 73174

View attachment 73173

View attachment 73175

I learned this by experience. It is very easy to dislodge this wire when reaching behind the engine for the spark plugs, etc. I spent an hour putting all the old plugs back in before i noticed I had knocked the wire off. :(
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This too has happened to me more than once…🤦🏼‍♂️
 
Mike Schofield said:
This too has happened to me more than once…🤦🏼‍♂️
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I think it has happened to us all. For me it was on the road outside St Louis when the clutch slave cylinder had puked. After assembling everything, bleeding everything and so on the GD car wouldn’t start. It was raining and I was tearing my hair out as I was trying to get back on the road with my sisters as we were driving the moving van towing the 850, a sister driving the X, another the 124 and another the Golf.

Making that simple connection and boom it started right up.
 
A further update, for all those who might care. While I had got the car started, it obviously wasn't right. I ended up pulling the transmission out and correcting the flywheel installation, and also pulling the crank pulley to verify the timing mark on the crank belt gear. What I found was extraordinary: The car originally had AC, so had the dual-sheave pulley at the cam belt end of the crank. A PO had at some point disassembled the two halves of the pulley (necessary to remove it with the engine in-situ), but had misaligned the two pieces when reassembling, forcing one of the studs into place. As a result, the timing mark on the pulley was 120° off! When I had reassembled the engine when it was out of the car, I had set the timing based on piston and cam gear position, and hadn't noticed the crank mark being off. When I later tried to use it, I was making it worse with every change! Anyway, now properly timed, starts instantly, and all I need to do is to fix the off-idle stumble and pre-ignition under load.
 
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BrioPA said:
A further update, for all those who might care. While I had got the car started, it obviously wasn't right. I ended up pulling the transmission out and correcting the flywheel installation, and also pulling the crank pulley to verify the timing mark on the crank belt gear. What I found was extraordinary: The car originally had AC, so had the dual-sheave pulley at the cam belt end of the crank. A PO had at some point disassembled the two halves of the pulley (necessary to remove it with the engine in-situ), but had misaligned the two pieces when reassembling, forcing one of the studs into place. As a result, the timing mark on the pulley was 60° off! When I had reassembled the engine when it was out of the car, I had set the timing based on piston and cam gear position, and hadn't noticed the crank mark being off. When I later tried to use it, I was making it worse with every change! Anyway, now properly timed, starts instantly, and all I need to do is to fix the off-idle stumble and pre-ignition under load.
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Great result, well done. Shows you where right to pull it apart as much as you did
 
BrioPA said:
A further update, for all those who might care. While I had got the car started, it obviously wasn't right. I ended up pulling the transmission out and correcting the flywheel installation, and also pulling the crank pulley to verify the timing mark on the crank belt gear. What I found was extraordinary: The car originally had AC, so had the dual-sheave pulley at the cam belt end of the crank. A PO had at some point disassembled the two halves of the pulley (necessary to remove it with the engine in-situ), but had misaligned the two pieces when reassembling, forcing one of the studs into place. As a result, the timing mark on the pulley was 60° off! When I had reassembled the engine when it was out of the car, I had set the timing based on piston and cam gear position, and hadn't noticed the crank mark being off. When I later tried to use it, I was making it worse with every change! Anyway, now properly timed, starts instantly, and all I need to do is to fix the off-idle stumble and pre-ignition under load.
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What was found is common, there are plenty of "wrencher" folks who believe they know precisely what to do and how they Will Do it.. Even if what they are doing and have done is absolutely incorrect.. This happens to virtually all motos made from Fiat to Ferrari and many more..

Good to have found this and making the corrections needed.

Bernice
 
BrioPA said:
all I need to do is to fix the off-idle stumble
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I am not sure if this applies to your situation, but I had an off-idle stumble in my 86X. The cure, suggested by a local mechanic friend, was new spark plug wires. He was right.
 
BrioPA said:
A further update, for all those who might care. While I had got the car started, it obviously wasn't right. I ended up pulling the transmission out and correcting the flywheel installation, and also pulling the crank pulley to verify the timing mark on the crank belt gear. What I found was extraordinary: The car originally had AC, so had the dual-sheave pulley at the cam belt end of the crank. A PO had at some point disassembled the two halves of the pulley (necessary to remove it with the engine in-situ), but had misaligned the two pieces when reassembling, forcing one of the studs into place. As a result, the timing mark on the pulley was 60° off! When I had reassembled the engine when it was out of the car, I had set the timing based on piston and cam gear position, and hadn't noticed the crank mark being off. When I later tried to use it, I was making it worse with every change! Anyway, now properly timed, starts instantly, and all I need to do is to fix the off-idle stumble and pre-ignition under load.
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Having not yet fiddled with an exxie with A/C I would never have guessed that one could re-assemble the crank pulley "wrong." Putting aside of course the notion that a crank pulley can be re-assembled! 🙃 🙃 🙃 🙃 😱

I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.
 
JimD said:
I am not sure if this applies to your situation, but I had an off-idle stumble in my 86X. The cure, suggested by a local mechanic friend, was new spark plug wires. He was right.
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Thanks, Jim. Wires are all brand new.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Having not yet fiddled with an exxie with A/C I would never have guessed that one could re-assemble the crank pulley "wrong." Putting aside of course the notion that a crank pulley can be re-assembled! 🙃 🙃 🙃 🙃 😱

I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.
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It's an interesting setup; you adjust the tension of the water pump belt by using the right thickness shim between the pulley halves. Because there is a TDC mark on the outer pulley half, the two pulley halves need to be keyed somehow, and Fiat did this by offsetting one of the three studs the outer half mounts to. Rather than being spaced equally 120° apart, they are spaced 120°, 122° and 118°. Close enough that you can cram the outer pulley half on there in the wrong orientation.
 
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