Odd running (miss?)

[Larry]

If the Fuel Pressure Regulator diaphram is bad it will allow fuel to leak and/or sucked out of the FPR into the plenum, resulting in a flooded condition. Pull the vacuum hose off the FPR & smell (not the larger return line). If it's leaking, you will smell fuel. Note that if this is the case, you need to also change the oil ASAP as the excess fuel will absolutley contaminate the crankcase & therefore the oil. This is a pretty common failure symptom on '80's Volvos utilizing the same design FPR.

If you can check fuel pressure, you may or may not see a rise/drop due to the bad diaphragm, but it will always be evident by smelling the vacuum line

Thanks. I've got a few things to check. I wasn't able to look at it today - we picked up a 2018 Fiat 124 Spider and the entire process most of the day. It's nice to have a new Fiat, but my priority is still to get my X1/9 on the road.

 

[ng_randolph]

Congrats on the 124! I made a much more mundane car-related purchase this weekend - new tires for the 500e.

 

[Larry]

Congrats on the 124! I made a much more mundane car-related purchase this weekend - new tires for the 500e.

Thanks! I'd like to take full credit for it, but it was my wife's idea. She's seen them at FIAT America events and on a recent 3-day, 800ish mile tour, rode with Dan Yee in his. Dan and I swapped cars a little while later and she was pretty much hooked. We picked up a white Lusso for just shy of $23,000 (before taxes and fees).

 

[Rod Midkiff]

I am having a similar hard start issue with my 86. If I stall (or miss clutch) when I am driving and kill the motor It alway's hard starts like it is flooded (the only time I have the issue is if I stall)

 

[Larry]

I am having a similar hard start issue with my 86. If I stall (or miss clutch) when I am driving and kill the motor It alway's hard starts like it is flooded (the only time I have the issue is if I stall)

I haven't had a chance to work on my car but should this weekend.

When you say "miss clutch" - but not stall the car - is this coming off the line from a complete stop like at a traffic light? Does it feel like you slipped off the clutch too fast and the car bogs down? Mine has done that on and off for some number of years. Until the stumble became pronounced at various RPM's, I assumed it was me and not the car.

 

[kmead]

As a point of interest, I poked a finish nail up through the vacuum port under the intake manifold during the winter, it was completely clogged. Having that vacuum available now has gotten rid of a miss/stumble I had with small throttle openings (something I have been chasing from a long while).

Just another possibility to look at.

 

[Rod Midkiff]

No, I am talking about stalling the car, having to re-start it. It is alway's flooded when I did this. (I am doing it less and less as I am getting re-adjusted to driving a Gas (low torque engine) Big truck engines make a TON of torque. I could get 150,000 pounds rolling and not touch the foot feed.

 

[Larry]

As a point of interest, I poked a finish nail up through the vacuum port under the intake manifold during the winter, it was completely clogged. Having that vacuum available now has gotten rid of a miss/stumble I had with small throttle openings (something I have been chasing from a long while).

Just another possibility to look at.

Thanks Karl. That's an interesting idea Karl. Do you mean the vacuum hose that goes to the distributor?

Larry

 

[Larry]

No, I am talking about stalling the car, having to re-start it. It is alway's flooded when I did this. (I am doing it less and less as I am getting re-adjusted to driving a Gas (low torque engine) Big truck engines make a TON of torque. I could get 150,000 pounds rolling and not touch the foot feed.

Ok. I was wondering if you were seeing a similar issue I've seen on my car. My car had done that for years and I always assumed it was me lifting off the clutch too fast but only sometimes since it didn't happen *every* time.

There's a good deal of discussion in this thread about things to check.

 

[kmead]

Thanks Karl. That's an interesting idea Karl. Do you mean the vacuum hose that goes to the distributor?

Larry

Yes. It is the nipple underneath the manifold directly under the throttle plate. Mine was fully clogged with years of guck. I know my other X has the same clog but couldn’t get the fastener through the schmutz. I will check the others. I will be dumping the other X’s manifold into a bucket of simple green to get the old oil deposits out of it.

 

[Larry]

Hmm.... so the acting like it's flooded took an interesting twist today. I got the car started on Sunday, let it warm up and then heat soak but it then acted like it was flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. I waited an hour, it still didn't start so I left it alone. Revisited it this afternoon around 5pm so it's sat for close to 50 hours and it won't start and acts like it's flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. So I think the problem isn't that it's flooding, since the car sat for so long.

I decided to adjust the timing even though it was set correctly. I advanced the timing and was able to get it to start after about 7 or 8 cranks of several seconds each. I let the car get warmed up, reset the timing so it was about 32 degrees at about 2600 RPM (I say about because I'm pretty sure my tach read about 500 rpm high). I waited 40 minutes and it won't start again - just cranks, sometimes sounds like it'll catch but won't. I reset the timing again and I've now got it set to about 35 degrees advance at 2600 rpm. Starting another heat cycle to see how it acts.

Ideas?

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

Hmm.... so the acting like it's flooded took an interesting twist today. I got the car started on Sunday, let it warm up and then heat soak but it then acted like it was flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. I waited an hour, it still didn't start so I left it alone. Revisited it this afternoon around 5pm so it's sat for close to 50 hours and it won't start and acts like it's flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. So I think the problem isn't that it's flooding, since the car sat for so long.

I decided to adjust the timing even though it was set correctly. I advanced the timing and was able to get it to start after about 7 or 8 cranks of several seconds each. I let the car get warmed up, reset the timing so it was about 32 degrees at about 2600 RPM (I say about because I'm pretty sure my tach read about 500 rpm high). I waited 40 minutes and it won't start again - just cranks, sometimes sounds like it'll catch but won't. I reset the timing again and I've now got it set to about 35 degrees advance at 2600 rpm. Starting another heat cycle to see how it acts.

Ideas?

Quit screwing with the timing, put it back where it belongs before you melt something.

Refer to the FIAT fuel injection troubleshooter, it's in the wiki page on this site. Tell us the checks you have made and the exact results.

 

[NEG]

Isn’t that advance wrong though? I thought max advance of ~33deg shouldn’t happen until 4.5K rpm. I’d static time it and leave alone as suggested.

 

[dcioccarelli]

Hmm.... so the acting like it's flooded took an interesting twist today. I got the car started on Sunday, let it warm up and then heat soak but it then acted like it was flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. I waited an hour, it still didn't start so I left it alone. Revisited it this afternoon around 5pm so it's sat for close to 50 hours and it won't start and acts like it's flooded - cranks, almost catches but doesn't and doesn't start. So I think the problem isn't that it's flooding, since the car sat for so long.

I decided to adjust the timing even though it was set correctly. I advanced the timing and was able to get it to start after about 7 or 8 cranks of several seconds each. I let the car get warmed up, reset the timing so it was about 32 degrees at about 2600 RPM (I say about because I'm pretty sure my tach read about 500 rpm high). I waited 40 minutes and it won't start again - just cranks, sometimes sounds like it'll catch but won't. I reset the timing again and I've now got it set to about 35 degrees advance at 2600 rpm. Starting another heat cycle to see how it acts.

Ideas?

Hi Larry,

I'd agree with the others about not adjusting the timing: you need to limit the number of variables at play and by making changes in one area you may only confuse the underlying issue.

To me, the symptoms you describe would indicate a leaking injector (or the cold start injector). The next time you can't restart, try disconnecting one of the wires from the fuel pump. If you can restart now, possibly with a floored pedal to remove the excess fuel, it will be a conclusive test (of course, the car will only run for a few seconds).

I had a similar situation a long time ago and (as a temporary solution) wired up a switch on the console to cut the power to the fuel pump.

Cheers,
Dom.

 

[Rod Midkiff]

on the concept of cutting power to the fuel pump, I did a simple mode. the fuse that run's the fuel pump is an add on that is just laying on top of the fuse panel, pull it's power feed wire and run a wife from the read window defrost switch, (now you have a fuel cut off switch to slow a thief down) Perfect for car's that don't use a key switch but instead just have toggles switches.

 

[Larry]

Did some testing and I'm almost completely open to suggestions.

I followed the trouble shooting guide by Brad Artigue. From that:

o The Coolant Temperature Sensor passed the test with flying colors - terminal 13 and ground at 70 F was about 2200 OHMS
o Thermo Time Switch is operating properly
o The Cold Start Valve is operating properly
o Air Flow Sensor passed - terminals 6 & 8, 7 & 8 and 8 & 9 were all under the amounts listed

I didn't test the:

o O2 sensor - the car won't start and the test is for hard acceleration and wide-open operation - neither of which are possible
o Auxiliary Air Regulator - once again, the car has to be running and with timing set to spec, the car won't start.
o Fuel Pressure regulator as I don't have a fuel pressure gauge.

o The fuel pump is not noisy

I didn't check for Injector Fuel Delivery or Injector Voltage. The car will start if I mess with the timing and will continue to run when I reset the timing back to 10 BTDC so my limited knowledge sort of tells me those aren't the problem.

I'm almost all ears. What else should I try?

The reason for messing with the timing to get it running is I really, really, really don't want to have to replace the master brake and clutch cylinders which from what I understand, will happen if the car is left to sit for too long.

My plan for tomorrow is to mess with the timing, get the car to start and warm up by idling it a bit, reset the timing to 10 BTDC and then take the car for a cruise to work the clutch and brake pedals in hopes they won't mind their hibernation.

But I'm open for ideas of what to try next.

Please note: The car isn't flooded. It acts like it is, but it isn't - that's just how I can best describe the fact it cranks, almost catches, but won't. If it was flooded, then after sitting for 50 hours, shouldn't it start right up?

 

[Larry]

Isn’t that advance wrong though? I thought max advance of ~33deg shouldn’t happen until 4.5K rpm. I’d static time it and leave alone as suggested.

I bumped the timing up to get the car to start. It was a desperation move - it won't start and my plan is to get it to start by almost any means necessary, warm it up a bit, reset the timing back to 10 BTDC and take the car for a drive to work the brake and clutch systems.

 

[Larry]

Hi Larry,

I'd agree with the others about not adjusting the timing: you need to limit the number of variables at play and by making changes in one area you may only confuse the underlying issue.

To me, the symptoms you describe would indicate a leaking injector (or the cold start injector). The next time you can't restart, try disconnecting one of the wires from the fuel pump. If you can restart now, possibly with a floored pedal to remove the excess fuel, it will be a conclusive test (of course, the car will only run for a few seconds).

I had a similar situation a long time ago and (as a temporary solution) wired up a switch on the console to cut the power to the fuel pump.

Cheers,
Dom.

Further back in the history of this problem, I replaced the injectors and cold start valve thinking it was a stuck injector, but the problem hasn't gone away. I realize re-manufactured X1/9 injectors and a NOS Spider Cold Start valve could be bad, but the chances are on the remote side.

 

[kmead]

Try disconnecting all the injectors wiring (the plastic connector at the injector). With the ignition on, does one side of each connector have voltage? The other side leads to the computer which grounds the injectors, which shouldn’t be grounded without the engine running. If you don’t have power at the injectors, it points to the dual relay or the wiring leading to the injectors as the culprit.

With the injectors disconnected, will the car start using starter fluid sprayed into the intake?

If you have power, use a ‘noid’ light (which is effectively a 12v LED) connected to the electrical connector, you should be able to see the light flickering on and off when you run the starter. If you have no light then there is an issue either in the wiring to the computer or the computer. If the light stays on then there is a fault in the computer or the wire is grounding prior to reaching the computer. Checking continuity on the ground side from the injector to the computer connector would be the thing to verify here to separate which problem is the issue.

By the way, the masters can suffer many years of non use and not have a problem. I replaced mine in 1993 and so far don’t need to redo them despite the car sitting for fifteen years effectively unused.

 

[Larry]

Try disconnecting all the injectors wiring (the plastic connector at the injector).

Bear with me here... feel free to address me like I are an idiot (that's typed that way intentionally). If the car will start when I advance the timing and will continue to run once the timing has been reset back to 10 BTDC, haven't we ruled out a voltage issue for the injectors?

With the ignition on, does one side of each connector have voltage? The other side leads to the computer which grounds the injectors, which shouldn’t be grounded without the engine running. If you don’t have power at the injectors, it points to the dual relay or the wiring leading to the injectors as the culprit.

I'll poke around. When I went through the diagnostic pages from the manual, I had trouble removing the connector from just 1 injector, let alone all 4.

With the injectors disconnected, will the car start using starter fluid sprayed into the intake?

If you have power, use a ‘noid’ light (which is effectively a 12v LED) connected to the electrical connector, you should be able to see the light flickering on and off when you run the starter. If you have no light then there is an issue either in the wiring to the computer or the computer. If the light stays on then there is a fault in the computer or the wire is grounding prior to reaching the computer.

Checking continuity on the ground side from the injector to the computer connector would be the thing to verify here to separate which problem is the issue.

How is this done?

By the way, the masters can suffer many years of non use and not have a problem. I replaced mine in 1993 and so far don’t need to redo them despite the car sitting for fifteen years effectively unused.

Even though masters can sit around for years, I've seen enough cars where the masters had gone bad that sat for less than 15 years. That's not something I want to risk.

I haven't started or attempted to start my car for almost 2 weeks. It didn't want to start today so I advanced the timing, got it running, let it warm up a bit, reset the timing to 10 BTDC and took it for a drive and filled up the tank as the low fuel light was on. That might be seen as a waste of time, but it was good for me to get the car out of the garage and running a bit and remember why I like driving it so much. Sitting in the in the garage and making "vrroom vrroom" noises doesn't give quite the same amount of satisfaction.

Is it worthwhile checking the voltage to the starter in case it's not getting enough juice?