Project midnight sunrise

Kendall said:
So, the plot thickens. I went to pull the carbs today to clean them this week. After loosening the carb base bolts I grab one to jiggle it loose. To my surprise the whole intake manifold rocks back and forth. Looks like I'll be pulling the manifolds to see what's going on and changing the gasket.

I was able to get all the manifold bolts off but the inside lower two. You can see them in this picture.View attachment 42392
I didn't have a deep 13 to get past the stud. Will a deep 13 work or is there another trick to getting these off? The upper nuts in reach end I had to tap off with a small chisel and hammer.

Anything else to consider doing the manifold gasket?

It looks like battery in there is new. So that's good.

Any opinions on the life expectancy for koni shocks?
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Replacing those two nuts with 12 point nuts will make it easier to get a socket on it "next time".
I place my new intake/exhaust gaskets in a plastic bag and dump some graphite in. Then I shake it up to coat them well. I do that so the gasket doesn't stick and can "slide" with the expansion and contraction of the head/manifolds. I'm assuming that the water feeds for the intake manifold are plugged in your head.
Koni doesn't rebuild shocks anymore, but Truechoice does.
 
As was noted above, it's critical that the intake and exhaust manifolds be the same thickness at the point where those nuts tighten down on both manifolds. This is a classic issue with using headers and the stock intake. Might not be an issue with both the header and your intake manifold being after market. If the intake was rocking then now is the time to take a close look at that connection as you try to rock the intake.

Get a set of deep metric sockets, this is not the only time you will need them on the car.
 
MikeHynes said:
Replacing those two nuts with 12 point nuts will make it easier to get a socket on it "next time".
I place my new intake/exhaust gaskets in a plastic bag and dump some graphite in. Then I shake it up to coat them well. I do that so the gasket doesn't stick and can "slide" with the expansion and contraction of the head/manifolds. I'm assuming that the water feeds for the intake manifold are plugged in your head.
Koni doesn't rebuild shocks anymore, but Truechoice does.
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I've never tried the graphite coating, but I have done similar with a weird "dressing" I have that leaves sort of a waxy film. Works good for gaskets that don't get too hot, so probibly not good for manifolds. I think graphite might be better there, I'm assuming you've done this before successfully?

Apparently Koni has changed their policies in recent years. For replacement parts, revalving, or rebuilding services they refer you to a couple of "approved" outside sources (as I recall there is one back east and one in Calif). Oddly Truechoice is NOT one of them (not saying they can't do it, just that they are not "approved"). I contacted those 'approved' companies for parts and was told my only alternative was to send my units to them for full rebuild, at a cost that was more than new ones. The one in Calif told me basically they don't want to bother with doing typical jobs, their specialty is more high end race stuff. Not a good level of customer service. This was a couple years ago, so things may have changed again.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
What type of gasket is that poking out from behind the manifolds? Looks like some type of foil?
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The foil gasket I think is the side of the intake manifold, cut (slightly wavy) to accommodate the exhaust. The blue line I think is sharpie or dye
 
ArtBasement said:
The foil gasket I think is the side of the intake manifold, cut (slightly wavy) to accommodate the exhaust. The blue line I think is sharpie or dye
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Yes, now I see it - thanks. ;) In the pic it looks flat, but you are correct, it's the bottom side of the intake manifold reflecting back. Must not have been done that long ago to still be so clean?
 
Koni used to do custom work on their struts, now Truecoice does. The last time I had them do some work for me they had access to the records that Koni had - they replicated the work Koni had done for me.
I don't know why Truecoice isn't a recommended Koni service center, but they have supplied me with the shock oil they use when rebuilding Koni struts. I've never asked for any parts or seals, I just send my struts to them, Even stock struts. Be sure to specify what color you want, they tend to paint everything yellow unless you ask!
 
Thanks for all the replies. The koni stuff will be down the road, but it's good to know they are rebuildable.

A little bit of bad news. I discovered cracks around the upper shock mount on the rear passenger side.
20210209_192612.jpg

The driver's side is fine, and the fronts have been reinforced. I hope I don't find more cracks in the suspension. I looked over the car pretty thoroughly, but you can't catch everything.

I also discovered some wetness under the car which looks like it's coming from under the water pump. So the plan for now is to finish pulling the manifolds and then start pulling the coolant lines and water pump. Is the radiator the low point of the system and should I start draining there?

I also discovered the exhaust system does not have a mount for the muffler. When I got all the nuts off it just pulled off. The exhaust manifold might be .020 or .030 thicker than the intake in some places, but I'm not 100% on that yet. I'll get them completely off this weekend and check. The coolant lines in the head are plugged with what looks like silver rtv of some kind. The gasket is one piece and pretty thin.
 
Check those strut tower tops to see if they are 'bulged' upward. They should be flat all across the top. It's fairly common for the sheet metal to gradually get pushed up (dished) by the suspension/top mount. That is likely what caused those cracks. If bulged then they can be pounded back down. Weld the cracks. Add a reinforcement plate under the tower tops (sandwiched by the top mounts).

That is why I hate silicone gasket makers. They always seem to end up where they aren't supposed to be and cause problems. Now that you know someone used the stuff before, it might also be in the oil pickup for the oil pump. But you'd have to remove the oil pan to see.
 
Kendall said:
Thanks for all the replies. The koni stuff will be down the road, but it's good to know they are rebuildable.

A little bit of bad news. I discovered cracks around the upper shock mount on the rear passenger side.View attachment 42635
The driver's side is fine, and the fronts have been reinforced. I hope I don't find more cracks in the suspension. I looked over the car pretty thoroughly, but you can't catch everything.

I also discovered some wetness under the car which looks like it's coming from under the water pump. So the plan for now is to finish pulling the manifolds and then start pulling the coolant lines and water pump. Is the radiator the low point of the system and should I start draining there?

I also discovered the exhaust system does not have a mount for the muffler. When I got all the nuts off it just pulled off. The exhaust manifold might be .020 or .030 thicker than the intake in some places, but I'm not 100% on that yet. I'll get them completely off this weekend and check. The coolant lines in the head are plugged with what looks like silver rtv of some kind. The gasket is one piece and pretty thin.
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The good thing is you can add strut doublers and it will never be a problem or issue for you in the future.

They can be had from Fiat Plus. Highly recommended.
 
Yes, I'll get the doublers for the rear taken care of down the road.

After getting the manifolds off I was able to get a good measurement of the bases. The exhaust manifold is the same thickness from end to end. The thickness of the bosses on the intake manifold vary about .010" total. It might be a little more than that, but not more than .015". I think I'll have to find a shop that can trim them down. I was considering doing it myself but the mill at my work is not great and the cost to buy something to figure the manifolds would probably be the same or more than paying something to do it.

My only other thought is would it be possible to add copper crush washers against the manifolds to take up some of that slack? It really isn't much, but maybe that would effect how much torque you can get on the nuts.

I did pull the plugs, which all look the same.
20210213_150138.jpg

They each had a bit of oil around their threads. I think that's coming from a cam box gasket leak. I'm very curious to see what the compression test will tell me. The oil looks very new and the coolant I drained from the block looked very clear, like maybe it was topped with just water. Though the coolant in the expansion tank was quite green.
It also looks like the front hood was run for a long time without being latched.
20210213_162010.jpg

It does close but it takes a hard push to latch it. Has anyone ever replaced the hood latch?

It's like layers of an onion with this car.
 
The latch mechanism gets dry and corroded, so it sticks. The "release" cable often breaks as a result of trying to overcome the resistance. Try cleaning and lubing the latch mechanism, replace the cable, and see if it works better.
 
With regard to the hood, I should have been clearer. The D shaped hasp (if that's what you call it) on the hood itself has a groove worn into it from not being latched. Maybe it's clearer in this picture. You can even see the square notch in its shadow.
20210213_180908.jpg
 
On the shared mounting stud for the intake and exhaust manifolds I find a little offset in thickness can be compensated for by the washer under the nut tilting a bit. I have never had my manifolds machined to exactly the same thickness but I have made offset "washers" with metal collars stepped to accommodate big differences in thickness. It's all a fiddly pain and makes me really appreciate the cross flow head on my spider twin cam.
 
Kendall said:
With regard to the hood, I should have been clearer. The D shaped hasp (if that's what you call it) on the hood itself has a groove worn into it from not being latched. Maybe it's clearer in this picture. You can even see the square notch in its shadow.View attachment 42852
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I realized that was the case. However it was likely not latched because the latch wasn't functioning correctly. That is a common issue. So my prior comments were suggesting that you check the latching mechanism to make sure it works correctly first. Even if it works, they should be serviced occasionally; clean and lube.

The worn area on the hook ("hasp") won't matter when the hood is closed completely. The latch holds it closed from the other side of the hook.
 
Carl, I totally understand. I wish the x had a cross flow head, but I can live with it. I checked the manifolds against a straight edge and they look perfect. Maybe it will be simplest to make up some stepped washers for the worse of the differences. That's a lot easier and cheaper than cutting all the flanges to match.
 
So, I did the compression test and I think things look good.

1: 120
2: 112
3: 105
4: 112

3 is the lowest, but it isn't that low. They are roughly within 10% of each other if I did the math right.

Looking more at the top end, I do think I want to do the cam tower gasket. If I'm doing the timing belt any ways that's just a matter of lifting the cam tower and changing it, correct?
 
Hummm, that's a bit more than 10% difference - more like 15%. However there isn't a hard set rule about the variance. But those are not steller numbers overall - closer to 150 would be preferred. Any chance you can do a leak down test to further investigate things? That requires another piece of test equipment. But it will tell you if there is a actual problem or just a lot of normal wear.

Otherwise you could probably get away as things are. Depends on your goals, budget, plans. Ideally it looks like it may be time for a rebuild. But as I say, not mandatory. Only my opinion though.
 
I found that I got more consistent results after I lubricated the check valve in both of my compression gauges. However, they both read about 15 psi apart (one turned out to be low when checked with a third). My motor had 50K on it and was reading in the 145 - 160 range after not being run for a number of years. Conditions were no intake, no exhaust, all plugs out, no clutch/PP (transaxle for starter only). I'm curious to check it again now that the motor has a few hundred miles on it since the lay up.
 
Well, thank you for the information. I suppose I'll be investigating this further. When I did the test I did it dry. The engine probably hasn't run in several years. Would doing the test with a squirt of oil in thehole make a major difference? I'm guessing not enough to remove the need to do a leakdown test.

I'll have to see what I can do to borrow an air compressor.
 
I would try the test with some oil if for no other reason than to make sure the cylinders are lubricated and don't get scored. Just make sure that the volume is small. I could imagine that filling the valve recesses in the 1500 pistons with oil would have a dramatic effect on the CR.
 
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