Radiator Roulette

D

Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

Waitin' On Parts...
Was seeing some suspicious cooling system behavior, so last night I got under the front of the car to look.

As it turns out, I smelled the problem before I saw it. Had some seepage coming from the upper corner where the nipple for the inlet hose is welded to the tank. Could be a failing weld, or could be one or more crosstubes have sprung a leak where they are mated to the tank. Upon closer inspection, I could see the trail of dried up coolant from the top of the tank to the bottom. Never saw a drop under the car.

This was the second aluminum rad that I have fitted to the car.

Ordered one of Midwest-Bayless's new improved aluminum rads with a 3-yr guarantee. Third time's a charm?
 
On the aftermarket aluminum rad in one of my X's, several of the cross tubes (cooling channels) have separated from the end plates (where the tanks mount). Some are very minor and therefore only leak at times, others seep constantly but very minorly, and still others are bigger separations and leak quite a lot. This has happened at both ends of the rad (on both end plates), so overall there are a LOT of leaks. At first I thought it was the tank seams that were leaking because the end plates are a part of the tank. But with some cleaning and testing I discovered it is the ends of the tubes, not the tanks. I doubt it can be repaired; it appears the end tanks would need to be removed to get access to them. Considering everything is a fabricated welded construction, I'm sure it would cost much more in labor than buying a new one. The thing that gets me is I believe the end places are part of the core, with the cooling (cross) tubes already attached. So it is not the construction of the radiator (e.g. end tank attachments) that's the problem, but the quality of the components (core) used to make it. I hope the "improved" units you refer to use a better quality of cores. Otherwise I don't see how they will be any better than the prior ones. Sucks because there are not cheap to buy and frequent replacement of them gets costly. However it would be nice to have the improved efficiency of a larger aluminum construction rad. They work excellent in other applications, under much more stringent conditions. So why can't they work in the X?
[Note: I am not naming any vendors or particular products specifically. These comments are general to any aftermarket aluminum radiator. No vendors were harmed in the making of this post.]
 
The thing I can't understand with everyone complaining about the quality of aftermarket X rads is why this is even an issue. It's not like this is new cutting edge technology, aluminum radiators have been around for awhile in great quantity.
 
carl said:
It's not like this is new cutting edge technology, aluminum radiators have been around for awhile in great quantity.
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That is exactly the point. And that is my complaint. They have been around for a long time and have proven to be very reliable, robust, problem free, and efficient. So why can't the providers of ones for the X get them right?
 
Even with the problems folks have had with aluminum rads I doubt many would opt for an NOS steel rad.
 
MikeHynes said:
I doubt many would opt for an NOS steel rad
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I know I would not. I prefer the increased cooling capacity/efficiency (and lighter weight) of a aluminum one. However given the quality issues with the aftermarket ones available for the X, I think I'll go to the VW rad conversion instead.
 
Get one from Howe Racing. They have my (oversize) spec. It's not cheap, but mine is now over 6years old & zero issues....
 
After reading about all the issues with aluminum radiators for the X, I decided to get my original radiator recored. For about the same price as an aluminum aftermarket radiator, I had a new all copper core put in. Unlike the factory radiator, the fins are also copper, not steel. I would imagine the copper fins should improve its cooling capability since steel is not the greatest for thermal conductivity. My radiator guy told me steel fins were big on European cars during that time frame for some reason (I would imagine cost or availability).
 
Mike, I'm surprised you would say that. I have never had a cooling issue with a properly clear stock radiator and yet I hear too many horror stories about improperly made aluminum after market rads. If the aftermarket gets their act together and sell reliable aluminum radiators I would have no problem buying one as a replacement but I have no desire to be a beta tester for the vendors at the moment.
 
carl said:
The thing I can't understand with everyone complaining about the quality of aftermarket X rads is why this is even an issue. It's not like this is new cutting edge technology, aluminum radiators have been around for awhile in great quantity.
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue is the fact that aluminium is being used so much as the quality of the manufacturing process. The OEM radiators are indeed very well built and will simply lose capacity over time as they clog up. Unfortunately, the dissipation is not as good as aluminium and they are significantly heavier.

I'd be willing to bet (although don't have any evidence) that a good quality aftermarket aluminium one (like the one from Henk) will fair better than the Chinese ones.

Cheers,
Dom.
 
While only one data point: The aluminum rad I bought during BobG's initial run has not leaked and performs really well. The only issue I had was that the bung for the bleed screw was not welded square to the tank. This meant my bleed screw contacted the edge of the hole in the sheet meet for frunk access. It took a couple tries at aligning it till it was not touching the edge. I haven't had to mess with it since those adjustments shortly after install back in 2014(?). I have been very happy with the rad.

I actually bought 2 at the time, so I have another one on the shelf for my 78 project, so hopefully it is just as good.
 
dcioccarelli said:
I don't think the issue is the fact that aluminium is being used so much as the quality of the manufacturing process.
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That was exactly my point. I don't know where any of them are coming from or who is making them, but there is no inherent reason why they would be so problematic aside from very poor quality. As Huss suggests, getting one from a reputable maker would be the answer. However for my valueless X, I do not feel the price from that particular source is justified. But not all high quality aluminum radiators are necessarily that expensive, at least not for other similar applications. In fact, the better ones for other vehicles are a LOT less expensive than the X-specific ones being sold by Fiat specialists...hum. Perhaps quantity is an issue though; there may not be a big enough market to get quality ones made for the X at a reasonable price.

To put the price in perspective, the VW radiator swap costs about $60 for a aluminum core / plastic tank unit from very reputable makers. It has a two row core and is about 50% larger in capacity than the stock X rad, plus it weighs significantly less. They are very reliable units, several members did this conversion many years ago and the results have proven to be good. The install is not that difficult but does require a couple of minor mods; the temp sensor and hoses are the same size as on the X, but it is a little taller and both hoses are on one side. So the mounting arrangement is a little different and one hose needs to be brought over to the other side. There are several good threads detailing the install. Sure, it isn't stock original, but neither are the aftermarket aluminum X rads we are discussing.
I do not think anyone has attempted it, but aftermarket "fabricated" racing style aluminum rads are available for the VW at a much lower price than the X specific ones. I imagine if the stock VW rad will fit, then so will this "racing" version. But it would not be necessary, as the stock VW rad will provide more than enough cooling capacity for even a modified X.
 
Totally agree. As I said it requires mods. However to me those are very minor to do. However that may not be the case for everyone. But to get a reliable radiator that does what I want for a cooling system upgrade, I don't see how you can beat the cost.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Totally agree. As I said it requires mods. However to me those are very minor to do. However that may not be the case for everyone. But to get a reliable radiator that does what I want for a cooling system upgrade, I don't see how you can beat the cost.
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I don't recall ever seeing a follow up post from someone installing a VW rad. I dont think more a few were installed judging by searches here on Xweb. While the VW rad is a known, the possible reliability issues with this VW mod are introduced in added leak points due to the modified hoses needed to route the coolant. Maybe someone will chime in with long term experience. I reached out to Brody to see how it worked out for him. Hopefully he can give us real world verification that all is well.
 
I recall more than a couple were done, but that's just from memory. And I believe Pete(?) and possibly Doug(?) were some of the people that offered later feedback on its success. Maybe they can verify it that's right. Often things get buried under discussions in other threads, so my search attempts aren't always successful. But I'll see if I still have any of those references.

Regarding the reliability of the VW radiators, I'm speaking from very long experience with them on VW's.
As for the hose connections. In my case I need to replace the cooling tubes under the car anyway. So I will make the new ones to both feed on the right, to match the VW radiator's format. This will also allow me to make the connecting hoses as short and straight as possible by aiming the tubes toward the new rad necks. Replacing the radiator may coincide with coolant tube rot for many people, so I might not be alone in this regard. Or another possibility might be to modify the end of the left side tube to reach the other direction (e.g. possibly rotate it). However even with the stock cooling tubes the connection to the VW rad could be minimalized with the right hose selection (so no additional joints are needed). I recall one of the VW rad installations found a hose that helped in this regard. But the number of hose connections shouldn't be a real factor regardless. The X's cooling system is already very convoluted anyway. And there have been some cooling tube replacements (without rad replacement) that used extra hose connections/joints to allow the use of alternative pipes, I have not seen any complains of them being problematic.

But don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue the merits either way. It certainly isn't for everyone - apparently Jim is one ;) These are simply my opinions. Also bear in mind I stated that cost was a factor in this opinion. Frankly I feel the stock rad location, air ducting, tube layout, etc, are not ideal to begin with. So if cost were no object, then I suppose a complete system redesign may even be worth a try. But short of that I feel the VW option is a much better one than any other I know of at this time.
 
Here is Brody's old VW Scirocco radiator thread from the Xweb 1.0 archives. I reached out to Brody to see if he would share his experience. Here is his response:

Hey Jim,
The radiator held up great for years. That being said, I haven't driven the car in years...for other reasons.
If my original post is still accessible, I'd direct folks to it for details. I never had any functional issues with it. The hoses fit just fine and I was able to bleed the air out of it. The radiator was about an inch or so too tall if I remember right. I used some thick spacers to drop the lower support (cross member).
Hope this helps! I think this is still a VERY worthy mod for the X.

v/r,
Brody
Click to expand...

So Brody says it held up well. So that is a data point in this mods favor.
 
I did the VW radiator conversion about 10 years ago and it's still going strong. It was
only $70 or $80 dollars if I remember correctly.
 
JimD said:
Here is Brody's old VW Scirocco radiator thread from the Xweb 1.0 archives. I reached out to Brody to see if he would share his experience. Here is his response:



So Brody says it held up well. So that is a data point in this mods favor.
Click to expand...

A PDF of the important part of the thread, sorry, this version is rotated. I will adjust it tomorrow when I have access to the full version of Acrobat at work.

Some possible hoses for at least one version of the mod (from the FFcars forum):
Upper Radiator Hose Update
After doing some research (Thanks Greg M) I came up with the following part numbers for the E71075 Advance Auto hose.
I used a 1990 Dodge Daytona non-turbo 2.5L lower radiator hose for a reference.
The part numbers are:
NAPA NBH 7974
Gates 21263
Dayco 71075 (same as advance auto or Autozone)
Good Year 61143
AC Delco 26077X
https://www.ffcars.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=E71075
 

Attachments

  • Scirocco Radiator Mod.pdf
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