Matt Brannon - Midwest Bayless
Mad.Matt
A few thoughts, as "one of those vendors" who sells aluminum X1/9 radiators.
As recently as 2013, no vendor, anywhere, offered new direct fit replacement X1/9 radiators.
IAP was one of the last vendors to offer new, stock-style units by Modine (ending in 2004 or ‘05), and they were nearly $400.
So the Scirocco rad became a go-to X1/9 solution. Cheap, effective, but it hangs too low, requires modified mounts, the hoses route kinda weird. It was good in a pinch, and cost effective, but was like fitting a GM alternator or Ford carb to your X1/9. Sure, they are really cheap because almost 300,000 MkII Sciroccos were produced through 1991, a lot of these plastic-tanked radiators are still floating around.
Enter Bob G. who did a big service to the group in 2013 by rolling up his sleeves and having an all-aluminum exact copy X1/9 radiator designed when others said “it can’t be done”. It was offered here to the group with unbelievable response, pre-selling a few hundred units at a price that was, honestly, just a little over cost.
It was a huge improvement over a stock steel-cored unit in terms of cooling performance, weight, and price. His offering set expectations for all three moving forward, which others worked to copy through various mfgs.
Midwest-Bayless secured the rights to Bob’s design and supplier after the initial run and the units we sold were additional shipments of the exact ones he offered. After a couple years of selling, we started being informed by clients of random leak issues. Usually on the right or left upper areas, where the core meets the tank. Maybe 1 out of a dozen, usually 18-24 months after install.
We pushed back on the manufacturer, but they did not warranty and no changes were offered to be made to the design or construction. The vast majority were OK, but we still saw the random issues, and also experienced them ourselves. Some cars we built / installed were fine. In other builds, we had repeat failures every few months ??!
Based on these extended observations, we came to the following conclusions:
1. The failures seemed to follow a pattern of happening only in stiffly sprung cars, including performance builds with lowering springs, sway bars, short side wall tires, coil overs. Especially so if they had all the above.
2. The radiators were so efficient that even when they did leak and the system would slowly bleed down its head pressure, it still cooled normally. Unlike a stock rad, where losing head pressure will result in a sustained 205 operating temp that can’t be pulled out.
3. In another observation, if aluminum rad was in good working order, and the car had a stuck “open” thermostat that did not modulate properly, the car would barely achieve 135 degrees at freeway speed in the middle summer. i.e. “overcooled!”.
4. We’re still left to ponder the mechanical cause for the problem. We believe that the material thickness was proper for most typical applications, but were failing in use for the X1/9 because the core had too long of a run for its height and thickness. Perhaps exacerbated by the deep amount of heat put it the tank from the upper bung weld. When full of liquid and encountering sharp road shocks in a stiffly sprung car, we believe it was flexing in the middle of core, resulting in problems at the upper core-to-tank solder joints over time.
Earlier this year we commissioned a redesign of the radiator with another, brand-name company. Due the observed “excess cooling capacity” of the original design, we thinned the core a bit (still way more efficient, 2-row core than a stock unit), asked for a more robust tank design, and strapped the center to prevent flex. This manufacturer offers warranty.
We just introduced this unit in the last week. We have test fit two of them, and fitment appears to be correct. Obviously time will tell if this design solves the problem, but the redesign should offer a more robust, truly stock-style unit. The cost has gone up a bit because this manufacturer charges more, and the volume of sales is a fraction of typical makes and models. Cost is still in line with what a stock replacement was 15 years ago for a unit that is even more efficient.
For those who have previously purchased our units, the vast majority will continue to be fine, especially on stock suspension, stock tire cars.
If you have purchased a rad in the last 24 months that has developed an issue, please contact us, and we’ll work to get you a discounted new design unit.
-Matt
Midwest-Bayless Italian Auto
614-784-8870
As recently as 2013, no vendor, anywhere, offered new direct fit replacement X1/9 radiators.
IAP was one of the last vendors to offer new, stock-style units by Modine (ending in 2004 or ‘05), and they were nearly $400.
So the Scirocco rad became a go-to X1/9 solution. Cheap, effective, but it hangs too low, requires modified mounts, the hoses route kinda weird. It was good in a pinch, and cost effective, but was like fitting a GM alternator or Ford carb to your X1/9. Sure, they are really cheap because almost 300,000 MkII Sciroccos were produced through 1991, a lot of these plastic-tanked radiators are still floating around.
Enter Bob G. who did a big service to the group in 2013 by rolling up his sleeves and having an all-aluminum exact copy X1/9 radiator designed when others said “it can’t be done”. It was offered here to the group with unbelievable response, pre-selling a few hundred units at a price that was, honestly, just a little over cost.
It was a huge improvement over a stock steel-cored unit in terms of cooling performance, weight, and price. His offering set expectations for all three moving forward, which others worked to copy through various mfgs.
Midwest-Bayless secured the rights to Bob’s design and supplier after the initial run and the units we sold were additional shipments of the exact ones he offered. After a couple years of selling, we started being informed by clients of random leak issues. Usually on the right or left upper areas, where the core meets the tank. Maybe 1 out of a dozen, usually 18-24 months after install.
We pushed back on the manufacturer, but they did not warranty and no changes were offered to be made to the design or construction. The vast majority were OK, but we still saw the random issues, and also experienced them ourselves. Some cars we built / installed were fine. In other builds, we had repeat failures every few months ??!
Based on these extended observations, we came to the following conclusions:
1. The failures seemed to follow a pattern of happening only in stiffly sprung cars, including performance builds with lowering springs, sway bars, short side wall tires, coil overs. Especially so if they had all the above.
2. The radiators were so efficient that even when they did leak and the system would slowly bleed down its head pressure, it still cooled normally. Unlike a stock rad, where losing head pressure will result in a sustained 205 operating temp that can’t be pulled out.
3. In another observation, if aluminum rad was in good working order, and the car had a stuck “open” thermostat that did not modulate properly, the car would barely achieve 135 degrees at freeway speed in the middle summer. i.e. “overcooled!”.
4. We’re still left to ponder the mechanical cause for the problem. We believe that the material thickness was proper for most typical applications, but were failing in use for the X1/9 because the core had too long of a run for its height and thickness. Perhaps exacerbated by the deep amount of heat put it the tank from the upper bung weld. When full of liquid and encountering sharp road shocks in a stiffly sprung car, we believe it was flexing in the middle of core, resulting in problems at the upper core-to-tank solder joints over time.
Earlier this year we commissioned a redesign of the radiator with another, brand-name company. Due the observed “excess cooling capacity” of the original design, we thinned the core a bit (still way more efficient, 2-row core than a stock unit), asked for a more robust tank design, and strapped the center to prevent flex. This manufacturer offers warranty.
We just introduced this unit in the last week. We have test fit two of them, and fitment appears to be correct. Obviously time will tell if this design solves the problem, but the redesign should offer a more robust, truly stock-style unit. The cost has gone up a bit because this manufacturer charges more, and the volume of sales is a fraction of typical makes and models. Cost is still in line with what a stock replacement was 15 years ago for a unit that is even more efficient.
For those who have previously purchased our units, the vast majority will continue to be fine, especially on stock suspension, stock tire cars.
If you have purchased a rad in the last 24 months that has developed an issue, please contact us, and we’ll work to get you a discounted new design unit.
-Matt
Midwest-Bayless Italian Auto
614-784-8870
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