Rally X1/9 - Prototipo style

[Marti80]

I have toyed with the idea of building a rally X1/9 for some time and I am deciding now is the time to make a start

It is stage rallying primarily that I want to do but also hillclimb would be nice. I initially wanted to make a Prototipo replica but the MSA won't accept into the historic categories for rallying as it was never homologated, at best an original car might have been accepted on an event to event basis but seeing as buying an original car is out the question that lead me down a different path

You can enter any car under 'standard series production car' rules (section 48 rules in blue book). Having analysed the rules, entry criteria for rallies and even phoned the MSA to clarify rules I am satisfied I could build something quick enough and have it look like a Prototipo.

I am going to run a pre 82 car and use the 182A400 1.6 16V engine in rally spec and a H pattern gearbox as well as lighten the car to get down to the minimum weight limit (740kg).

Once I get going I am going to have lots of questions, at this point I am gathering key parts for the project. I hope to really get going later this year with making the modifications to the engine to start to get it ready for the X

 

[speedy fiat]

Can you confirm which country you are hoping to compete in? as the correct advice would likely vary a lot between countries

 

[Marti80]

Can you confirm which country you are hoping to compete in? as the correct advice would likely vary a lot between countries

It is in the UK, rules are as per the MSA rules section 48 and entry criteria for rallies I checked both local and national series

 

[Marti80]

Can you confirm which country you are hoping to compete in? as the correct advice would likely vary a lot between countries

I see that you have a photo of an X with a Prototipo kit, is that yours?

 

[speedy fiat]

Yes, that's mine. It's been extensively modified for hillclimbs, including an Uno Turbo engine. The body kit was mainly because it looks cool. There was an Prototipo bodied X1/9 rallying around the north of the UK within the last few years. I dont know the rally regs and so couldn't say what class it was in. There are some video clips out there somewhere.
I do know that for hill climbs you'll be in the 'sports libre' class (scary fast, space framed, bike engined stuff) if the engine block is not recognisable as the original. Page 358 2023 Blue Book. You can get away the body kit if you run in the modified class - but the snorkel winds up the scrutineers . You're welcome to poke around my car if it will help your project, I'm at the top end of Northamptonshire near Corby

 

[fiatfactory]

I would hazard a guess that 'standard series production car' rules (section 48 rules in blue book). " precludes the use of anything not recogniseable as the standard production block, which a 182 series engine isn't.

Another member hillclimbs an X19 in a similar series in Ireland I believe, and he has "bent" the rules a little by using a later tipo style SOHC block which allows for longer stroke cranks, and he's pushed his SOHC to 1800 plus cc's. Although it's not quite to the letter of the law of the rules as he's changed from the original block type it appears to please the scrutineers (or they haven't realised as the block looks so similar) as he enters and won a championship.

If you wanted to stick to the rules, you'd probably need to stick to the OE type block - so either a 128A1 or a 138A2 block, and then your best bet is to stroke it and increase capacity, you can take a 1300/1500 block out to about 1750cc by the use of bespoke crank/rods and pistons.
I'd also hazard a guess that once you alter bodywork by fitting flares and ducting and a snorkel, you'll immediately fall into some "modified" class, where you'll be up against bike engine/ sequential transmission / purpose built cars and unlikely to be competitive.

What path you take with both engine and bodywork I'd guess would depend if you want to;

a) stick to the rules
b) be competitive in your designated class

SteveC

 

[Marti80]

Yes, that's mine. It's been extensively modified for hillclimbs, including an Uno Turbo engine. The body kit was mainly because it looks cool. There was an Prototipo bodied X1/9 rallying around the north of the UK within the last few years. I dont know the rally regs and so couldn't say what class it was in. There are some video clips out there somewhere.
I do know that for hill climbs you'll be in the 'sports libre' class (scary fast, space framed, bike engined stuff) if the engine block is not recognisable as the original. Page 358 2023 Blue Book. You can get away the body kit if you run in the modified class - but the snorkel winds up the scrutineers . You're welcome to poke around my car if it will help your project, I'm at the top end of Northamptonshire near Corby

Thanks, will be very interested to know more about challenges of fitting the kit when I get closer to the time.

I think I could convince that the later block is identifiable like the original, there are some differences for oil ways but certain pictures will look the same, plus online family group shows it as the same engine family. For hillclimb they would still put me in the modified category at best because of the wheel arches.
Hillclimbs are my secondary event with stage rallying being first. Still good to have the option to do them for fun, but I wouldn't be a serious competitor in the class

 

[Marti80]

I would hazard a guess that 'standard series production car' rules (section 48 rules in blue book). " precludes the use of anything not recogniseable as the standard production block, which a 182 series engine isn't.

Another member hillclimbs an X19 in a similar series in Ireland I believe, and he has "bent" the rules a little by using a later tipo style SOHC block which allows for longer stroke cranks, and he's pushed his SOHC to 1800 plus cc's. Although it's not quite to the letter of the law of the rules as he's changed from the original block type it appears to please the scrutineers (or they haven't realised as the block looks so similar) as he enters and won a championship.

If you wanted to stick to the rules, you'd probably need to stick to the OE type block - so either a 128A1 or a 138A2 block, and then your best bet is to stroke it and increase capacity, you can take a 1300/1500 block out to about 1750cc by the use of bespoke crank/rods and pistons.
I'd also hazard a guess that once you alter bodywork by fitting flares and ducting and a snorkel, you'll immediately fall into some "modified" class, where you'll be up against bike engine/ sequential transmission / purpose built cars and unlikely to be competitive.

What path you take with both engine and bodywork I'd guess would depend if you want to;

a) stick to the rules
b) be competitive in your designated class

SteveC

Hi Steve

I have seen Gordon's hillclimb car in action, pretty impressive.

Under the stage rallying rules you can actually change to any manufacturer engine as long as it's within 25% capacity of the original engine. They don't care about going 16v or not bit when it comes to entry classes they segregate by 2 valves or 4 valves per cylinder and capacity. So 1600 16v puts you in a class with Novas, 205s etc but also Clio Maxi replica

The block being identified like the original affects entry more for hillclimbs which is more for fun. Probably won't upset anyone as I won't be fast enough lol

I think the later 16v engine also has a nice look in the engine bay, sounds good and should give decent power.

I am looking forward to the challenge.

I used to hillclimb an Integrale in the roadcar section and gave me a taste for more

 

[fiatfactory]

The only real issue with the 16Valve Bravo/Brava engine is the hydraulic lifters. These will limit the camshaft lift and also the revs you can use, as they will fail if you consistently use in excess of 7k

Converting to a solid lifter and a shim is possible, but requires quite a bit of machining. You will also find that sourcing suitable (billet) cams is going to be quite expensive.

The stock 16V inlet manifolding is designed to maximise torque. The stock engine is rated to 103hp (crank) but without significant changes to the inlet manifolding and the use of ITB's, you're going to be limited to around 105RWHP if you optimise the (mostly) standard engine.

There is an X19 local to me that has a 16v brava engine. The original owner that fitted it spent significant amounts of time/effort and money to rebuild and develop it. The original owner (Dean) is quite a clever mechanical engineer, and I personally know the guy (Tony Flood) who did the build/assembly, so I'd say they must have got pretty close to the best possible result. They spent a lot of time optimising the camshaft lobe centres and fueling/ignition with an aftermarket ECU on the dyno (stock inlet manifolding) The next owner fabricated a rather nice set of extractors and exhaust system, and after all that effort, the engine made just 103RWHP on the dyno.

The 16v cylinder head certainly has a lot of potential, and with enough effort (and money) will exceed the Hp potential of the 8v engine, but don't expect it to be "cheap" horsepower. Up to around about 90hp/litre the 8V will be easier and cheaper to get there.

This is a 16v 182 base engine stroked to 1800cc... as you can see there's lots of potential, but this would not be a cheap exercise.

SteveC

 

[Marti80]

The only real issue with the 16Valve Bravo/Brava engine is the hydraulic lifters. These will limit the camshaft lift and also the revs you can use, as they will fail if you consistently use in excess of 7k

Converting to a solid lifter and a shim is possible, but requires quite a bit of machining. You will also find that sourcing suitable (billet) cams is going to be quite expensive.

The stock 16V inlet manifolding is designed to maximise torque. The stock engine is rated to 103hp (crank) but without significant changes to the inlet manifolding and the use of ITB's, you're going to be limited to around 105RWHP if you optimise the (mostly) standard engine.

There is an X19 local to me that has a 16v brava engine. The original owner that fitted it spent significant amounts of time/effort and money to rebuild and develop it. The original owner (Dean) is quite a clever mechanical engineer, and I personally know the guy (Tony Flood) who did the build/assembly, so I'd say they must have got pretty close to the best possible result. They spent a lot of time optimising the camshaft lobe centres and fueling/ignition with an aftermarket ECU on the dyno (stock inlet manifolding) The next owner fabricated a rather nice set of extractors and exhaust system, and after all that effort, the engine made just 103RWHP on the dyno.

The 16v cylinder head certainly has a lot of potential, and with enough effort (and money) will exceed the Hp potential of the 8v engine, but don't expect it to be "cheap" horsepower. Up to around about 90hp/litre the 8V will be easier and cheaper to get there.

This is a 16v 182 base engine stroked to 1800cc... as you can see there's lots of potential, but this would not be a cheap exercise.

SteveC

I did a lot of research on the 16v engines as part of the evaluation and share your conclusions. I am going to be going solid lifters, bigger inlet valves and probably slide throttle bodies if I can squeeze them in. Also dry sump. The weight of the engine is attractive compared to the DOHC and it is a little more compact for the engine bay.

On the gearbox side I have concluded that I must go straight cut with an LSD in the original casing. I did consider a 130TC ZF swap but in order to squeeze out every last bit of HP and for strength I think I have to go straight cut and just live with the noise.

As for flywheel and clutch, that is easy, both very lightweight and a double plate clutch.

I am still looking into wheels, possibly group 4 Abarth wheels, maximum width I can run is 8"

Getting down to the weight limit (740 kg) is a bit of a concern as I have to run steel doors and steel rear quarters. I will have to buy scales and keep chopping until I reach the target. The advantage of running in the up to 1600 class is weight limit so i have to take full advantage of it. Any category below this and I doubt the x could reach the minimum weight for stage rallying. I think a lot of the escorts will be closer to 850kg > 950kg so I should be a lot more nimble

 

[Marti80]

My engine arrived, looks good condition, not much corrosion and the alloy components are pretty fresh. It is also low milage. Already stripped it down getting the head ready for new valves etc

 

[fiatfactory]

You will want to do some research on the Palio super 1600, same engine built for European junior rally championship. at the beginning of the 2000's...

FIA homologation document 5602 has a lot of the relevant info on what the factory did to extract more power.

The 16v 1600 was also developed for formula 4, and in those cases they actually reversed the flow of the engine. Now I don't know if the reversed the head on the block, or if the turned the exhaust ports into the intake ports, but this is what various Italian tuners did back in the mid 1990's.

SteveC

 

[Marti80]

That's brilliant info Steve, thanks for that

 

[Lowtechprime]

Hey Steve! What is the benefit of reversing the flow? How does that increase power? If it's entering one side and exiting the other, what difference does that make which direction it's going?

 

[fiatfactory]

Hey Steve! What is the benefit of reversing the flow? How does that increase power? If it's entering one side and exiting the other, what difference does that make which direction it's going?

it makes no difference at all to power which way the engine flows, but in the case of an X19 and 128 installation it would fit the chassis better, as the engine tilts forward...

tilting the engine forward by using the same mounting method, automatically makes the port more downdraft on that side of the engine (by the angle of engine tilt) and that definitely is a step towards increasing flow / power.

on the 16 v the angle of the intake and exhaust valves is different, that may be part of the reason too. There could be more material around the port, but I've never (or seen anyone that has) cut one of these heads up to know what the available material is ... as I said I cant really tell from the pictures if the head has been reversed or if the ports have been switched.

SteveC

 

[Marti80]

I would expect that they rotate the head 180 degrees, that what they do with most of the other conversions. I have a reversed head 16v twin cam and that's what we do with them. Both Alfa and Vauxhall did this during the 90's for Touring car racing to get the inlet entering from the front of the car for ram air effect.

I am happy with the Multipla engine having the inlet towards the front and the exhaust exiting rearwards for a number of reasons mainly linked to the factory Prototipo project. Despite using the SOHC engine and not the DOHC like the factory cars I wanted to retain as much lineage as possible. I really like the SOHC engine with the Multipla DOHC head as it has similarities to the older style Abarth DOHC 16v head in how it looks. Keeping it the same configuration helps retain some of that look also. I would add that I doubt there would be much advantage to rotating a 16v head for an X installation as the inlet tract angle lends itself to angling up the throttle plate to bring the air in vertically in one fall swoop. Rotating it would result in squeezing the exhaust under the engine which I want to keep clear for an undertray.

The original Prototipo snorkel directs air to the front of the engine cover at the bulkhead as this is how the factory were feeding cooler air to the downdraft carbs. I plan to retain the snorkel as part of a sealed cold air box system so it will look original but is hopefully more effective.

 

[NigelProdrive]

Have done lots of stage rallies (150+) and hillclimbs including Pikes Peak.

All the engine talk is nice but in rally more important factors in the performance equation is suspension, differentials and gearing.

X-19 is tiny. Modern N American cage requirements would be so cramped unless you are little people. Don’t know what requirements there may be. A single person for roadracing and hillclimb is one thing, but add a codriver, spare, rally spec cage, odo, no space for helmets (coats in winter) on transits between stages, ........

Mostly gravel events here. The one X-19 that ran briefly with snorkel sucked down so much of its own dust it was strangled.

Suspension? Bodykits and wheel sizes chat is nice but suspension travel is key and difficult considering low front or you won't be going flat over crests and yumps. IIRC, the one that ran here crashed or endo-ed landing a jump. Such a tiny wheelbase and track footprint. Strut tower strengthening? Skidplating. Limited space for a spare.

Another factor to consider is lack of crumple zone. Rally has no cushy tire walls, runoffs, kitty litter gravel traps, corner workers,...While the speeds there aren't as fast as the more open and wide roads reach here; there still are stone walls, trees, exposure (drops), ...which you really wouldn't want to become part of in a tiny car. RIP Craig Breen who died today just testing.

Splurge for a Stratos or 037. Or look at what Fiat choose to run in rally; a much larger 131.

 

[Steve Thomas]

Modern N American cage requirements would be so cramped

Yeah, I am wondering about this too. One of mine came with a basic hoop etc but no way in hell does it comply with anything here is Australia. The issue is helmet clearence - which there isn't any of and I reckon if I put a helmet on in a X with no roll cage at all, it would hit roof etc. I am 5 foot 10.

 

[Steve Thomas]

snorkel

no surprise - the Prototipos were [surprise!] prototypes, were not developed and had a very poor competition history. The snorkel is somebodies best guess and the cars had other more serious problems anyway.

 

[Marti80]

That is an impressive number of rallies and events. What did you do them in?

I have spoken about the approach for a few things like engine, bodywork, the rest I will come too.

Probably worth saying that the events I am looking at are tarmac, obviously quite different to the loose. Although I would happily have a go on the loose with it, events here are not like the 1000 lakes so am unlikely to need a pilots license.

The X19 being small is actually the point, rallies in Scotland are, well, pretty typical tarmac events, tight and twisty, ideal for a nimble light car. For larger cars the more weight they carry the bigger everything has to get, and maximum tyre size for any car over 1600cc is just 9".

I am not really expecting any clearance issues with the cage, there are umpteen competition X19s in use, mainly in hillclimbs. I have a pretty big head but not the size of a medicine ball so I expect it to fit in, if not I will have to do a Zagato double bubble.

All the rest of the stuff like strengthening, diffs, suspension I will get to. I am currently researching gearbox options so some things are still in planning

Just to add, i considered both an 037 and Stratos build. The O37 would not be eligible for entry into proper timed events and the Stratos would have to be genuine to get historic entry or be exact replica with a Ferrari engine to be considered. As I don't have half a million pounds I left them alone lol