Removing the head

Cam box bolts, not head bolts. You can spin the head bolts out any old way you see fit. :)

Pete

I have seen writeups where it is recommended to loosen and remove head bolts in the exact same sequence and manner as would be used to tighten them, but who knows if that is based on scientific testing or a lot of assumptions and guesswork? o_O:rolleyes:
 
Before you remove the cam box, it is usually a good idea to get as much oil out of it as possible to minimize the mess once you pull it up. I've used a syringe or a turkey baster, as well as a few paper towels and rags to catch the drips.
 
Just curious as to why you are doing this...I thought once you got the distributor and timing fixed for the show it was running good...?
Dan,
Something happened on my drive back from the show. The X1/9 started to overheat up to just over 200 so I turned on the heater and it cooled back down to 190. 1hr and 20min drive. When I parked the X1/9 it seemed okay. The next day I took the aftermarket distributor out and replaced with the semi-rebuilt distributor and corrected the wiring back to factory and the X1/9 wouldn’t hold power for very long and over overheated within minutes of starting. So, I checked the oil and there is a lot of antifreeze in the oil. So I took the distributor back out and did a total rebuild on the one JimD sent me and made it practically new(ish) and I am hoping it is the head gasket and not the head.
Also, when I took off the driver side intake runner antifreeze pored out the inner part of the intake. Not a little bit quit a lot. I am hoping to be able to clean the head and the block while they are apart and replace hoses and stuff I couldn’t get to with the head on so it is a win win if I can put a positive note to all of this.
Also, this time I have by in from the Commander in Chief of the House so things are better.

Back story; all of this started because I ignored the warning signs that the tensioner pulley was not feeling well and failed. Bringing with it a whole lot of pain. That is in another thread. Then the rotor pin broke apart from my new distributor cap and I didn’t know it. That would have saved me everything if only I knew then what it know now.
I really appreciate everything everyone is saying and I am paying great attention to all the details. This is more than I have ever done to any vehicle.

I am doing all of this for Gary so I hope he appreciates the effort.
Wish me luck in getting the X1/9 running again.
Mike
 
So, I checked the oil and there is a lot of antifreeze in the oil. So I took the distributor back out and did a total rebuild on the one JimD sent me and made it practically new(ish) and I am hoping it is the head gasket and not the head.

Did I send you a distributor? I remember sending strut mounts.
 
Dan,
Something happened on my drive back from the show. The X1/9 started to overheat up to just over 200 so I turned on the heater and it cooled back down to 190. 1hr and 20min drive. When I parked the X1/9 it seemed okay. The next day I took the aftermarket distributor out and replaced with the semi-rebuilt distributor and corrected the wiring back to factory and the X1/9 wouldn’t hold power for very long and over overheated within minutes of starting. So, I checked the oil and there is a lot of antifreeze in the oil. So I took the distributor back out and did a total rebuild on the one JimD sent me and made it practically new(ish) and I am hoping it is the head gasket and not the head.
Also, when I took off the driver side intake runner antifreeze pored out the inner part of the intake. Not a little bit quit a lot. I am hoping to be able to clean the head and the block while they are apart and replace hoses and stuff I couldn’t get to with the head on so it is a win win if I can put a positive note to all of this.
Also, this time I have by in from the Commander in Chief of the House so things are better.

Back story; all of this started because I ignored the warning signs that the tensioner pulley was not feeling well and failed. Bringing with it a whole lot of pain. That is in another thread. Then the rotor pin broke apart from my new distributor cap and I didn’t know it. That would have saved me everything if only I knew then what it know now.
I really appreciate everything everyone is saying and I am paying great attention to all the details. This is more than I have ever done to any vehicle.

I am doing all of this for Gary so I hope he appreciates the effort.
Wish me luck in getting the X1/9 running again.
Mike

Just as a friendly point of info, a coolant temp gauge reading of slightly over 200 is NOT overheating. Is it above the ideal nominal rating of the stock thermostat (190)? Yes, but not by much and certainly not enough to call overheating.

Having coolant in the oil should result in a classic "chocolate milkshake" appearance to oil drained from the sump. Can you post a pic of what you have drained from the sump?

Spilling coolant when removing the intake runners is to be expected if you have not drained the cooling system to a level that is below the cyl head. The reason is that there are two small coolant passages drilled into the heads that are used on cars with carbs, these passages mate with corresponding passages in the carby manifold and this serves to heat the manifold for better fuel atomization. Even though the FI intake runners don't use and don't have coolant passages in the runner casting, FIAT did not remove these passages in the cyl head for the Fuel Injected engines---they just use a manifold gasket that blocks off the passage. So, if you remove the FI intakes, and you did not drain off some coolant before hand, you're going to get a fair amount of coolant spillage, which could make it look like coolant is running out of the intake ports. See green arrow below:
head1.jpg




IIRC when you were working thru your first big timing thread, I noted the ***possibility*** that if your timing was far enough out of whack, a ***possible*** result could be severe enough detonation to take out the head gasket. Once the head comes off we will see if that possibility has indeed become a reality.
 
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Did I send you a distributor? I remember sending strut mounts.
Sorry JimD... it was Jeff Stitch. He sent me a fairly good one but I took it apart and clean everything.
You did send me the strut mounts for my front strut job I did earlier. They are great btw. Thank you. I will need some later when I start the rear strut change out. But that will be much later, now.

Mike
 
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Just as a friendly point of info, a coolant temp gauge reading of slightly over 200 is NOT overheating. Is it above the ideal nominal rating of the stock thermostat (190)? Yes, but not by much and certainly not enough to call overheating.

Having coolant in the oil should result in a classic "chocolate milkshake" appearance to oil drained from the sump. Can you post a pic of what you have drained from the sump?

Spilling coolant when removing the intake runners is to be expected if you have not drained the cooling system to a level that is below the cyl head. The reason is that there are two small coolant passages drilled into the heads that are used on cars with carbs, these passages mate with corresponding passages in the carby manifold and this serves to heat the manifold for better fuel atomization. Even though the FI intake runners don't use and don't have coolant passages in the runner casting, FIAT did not remove these passages in the cyl head for the Fuel Injected engines---they just use a manifold gasket that blocks off the passage. So, if you remove the FI intakes, and you did not drain off some coolant before hand, you're going to get a fair amount of coolant spillage, which could make it look like coolant is running out of the intake ports. See green arrow below:
View attachment 27277



IIRC when you were working thru your first big timing thread, I noted the ***possibility*** that if your timing was far enough out of whack, a ***possible*** result could be severe enough detonation to take out the head gasket. Once the head comes off we will see if that possibility has indeed become a reality.
Dan,
That explains the coolant leaking from the intake runner. I do have coolant in the oil. It is not a normal color, greyish strange color and there is more liquid than I had last time I checked the oil. Something is in there and I hope it is coolant and not something foreign.
Anyway, I need to do this and clean and correct some other stuff while in there. I might even be able to get to the side engine mount I couldn’t earlier and change the thermostat, clean some grounds and just check everything. I need to change a hose on one of the fuel injectors also.
Maybe this is a good thing. Plus, I am still learning and someday will be able to pass on to others on the forum like I am today.
I really wish someone was close by that could help but it is what it is.
Thanks... I am getting the magnets this weekend.
Mike
 
Update;
I pulled the valve cover instead of the valve box. I was confused as to what a valve box is so I pulled the wrong thing. Oh well, now I know. However, I order for me to place the magnets that were suggested I needed to pull the cover anyway. While I was pulling the valve box the I used an old license plate to ensure nothing fell out. The magnets held everything perfectly. Set the box aside and started to break the head bolts. I noticed that the thermostat housing is part of the head so I am going to pull that off before I pull the head completely. I am replacing the thermostat.
Getting there slowly. I slowly loosened the valve box bolts until the whole box was free. Everything should be good.
Update ya’ll later when I get time to do more.
Now to order a valve box gasket. I have two valve cover gaskets on the way... now that there is funny.
Mike
BTW, this is the furthest I have ever been in an engine. Thanks for the help I have needed so far.
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I pulled the valve cover instead of the valve box. I was confused as to what a valve box is so I pulled the wrong thing. Oh well, now I know.
You may have noticed that you needed to pull the cover off to access the bolts...
You didn't pull the wrong thing, it had to come off anyway.
:)
 
Looking good so far.

Additional tips for the next couple of steps:

1. Those magnets are strong but can be brittle, so try not to put them under any mechanical pressure, like accidentally squashing them with a cam lobe. At this point I would remove the magnets, and then remove the buckets and shims (buckets are also sometimes called tappets and cam followers), keeping the shims with their buckets and the buckets in order.

2. When cleaning, treat your cam box-to-cyl head surfaces delicately. I would suggest purchasing this scraper or equivalent good quality: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SER...RV8QyF81gGJcxP5vX2ZRrvy2U3h8pYegaAhQLEALw_wcB Clean the two cam box-to-cyl head surfaces first while the tool is still factory sharp, and use a very light touch...gouging will create messy leaks! I am of the opinion that a good quality sharp gasket scraper, wielded with delicacy, and from very shallow cutting angles, is better for this particular job than razor blade-based solutions.

3. Once the head is off the block, post good close-up pics of the business side of the head, and the head gasket in-place and undisturbed on the block, for examination by our "braintrust." We should be able to see if there was a detonation situation.

4. In all fairness because it's pretty much a given with aluminum cyl heads, you should expect to take the head to a good local machine shop and have them check it for flatness within spec and, if necessary, resurfacing. Unless something really bad happened, the block won't need resurfacing.

5. The block will have head gasket residue on it. To clean the top surface of the block, first thing is to stuff up ALL of the many coolant and oil holes in the block BUT of course be careful that you do not accidentally put the stuffing too far down to where it gets lodged in the hole! No need to stuff the bolt holes or the cyl bores. Start your cleaning by doing a couple of quick passes with the scraper to get the big stuff, and vacuum up debris between passes. Then use a gasket solvent https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80645-Low-Gasket-Remover/dp/B0018PXX2I and small steel bristle brushes to scrub the surface. You'll find the surface of the block is not perfectly smooth, it has very fine rotary broach marks from factory machining. Once you can see and feel them with a fingernail, it's clean enough.

***DON"T use any kind of "whizzer cookie"--they remove metal, NOT desirable. DON'T use a bristle based cookie like this https://www.amazon.com/3M-3M-18730-...HTG9CDXVB67&psc=1&refRID=G51SMYBBAHTG9CDXVB67, they work but they are not a great idea for cleaning a block in-place----they create too much debris that is guaranteed to get into the crankcase and coolant passages.

Gun bore brushes and general solvent like carb or brake cleaner are great for cleaning out head bolt holes in the block. .40 or .45 will work. 9mm too small.
 
Looking good so far.

Additional tips for the next couple of steps:

1. Those magnets are strong but can be brittle, so try not to put them under any mechanical pressure, like accidentally squashing them with a cam lobe. At this point I would remove the magnets, and then remove the buckets and shims (buckets are also sometimes called tappets and cam followers), keeping the shims with their buckets and the buckets in order.

2. When cleaning, treat your cam box-to-cyl head surfaces delicately. I would suggest purchasing this scraper or equivalent good quality: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SER...RV8QyF81gGJcxP5vX2ZRrvy2U3h8pYegaAhQLEALw_wcB Clean the two cam box-to-cyl head surfaces first while the tool is still factory sharp, and use a very light touch...gouging will create messy leaks! I am of the opinion that a good quality sharp gasket scraper, wielded with delicacy, and from very shallow cutting angles, is better for this particular job than razor blade-based solutions.

3. Once the head is off the block, post good close-up pics of the business side of the head, and the head gasket in-place and undisturbed on the block, for examination by our "braintrust." We should be able to see if there was a detonation situation.

4. In all fairness because it's pretty much a given with aluminum cyl heads, you should expect to take the head to a good local machine shop and have them check it for flatness within spec and, if necessary, resurfacing. Unless something really bad happened, the block won't need resurfacing.

5. The block will have head gasket residue on it. To clean the top surface of the block, first thing is to stuff up ALL of the many coolant and oil holes in the block BUT of course be careful that you do not accidentally put the stuffing too far down to where it gets lodged in the hole! No need to stuff the bolt holes or the cyl bores. Start your cleaning by doing a couple of quick passes with the scraper to get the big stuff, and vacuum up debris between passes. Then use a gasket solvent https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80645-Low-Gasket-Remover/dp/B0018PXX2I and small steel bristle brushes to scrub the surface. You'll find the surface of the block is not perfectly smooth, it has very fine rotary broach marks from factory machining. Once you can see and feel them with a fingernail, it's clean enough.

***DON"T use any kind of "whizzer cookie"--they remove metal, NOT desirable. DON'T use a bristle based cookie like this https://www.amazon.com/3M-3M-18730-...HTG9CDXVB67&psc=1&refRID=G51SMYBBAHTG9CDXVB67, they work but they are not a great idea for cleaning a block in-place----they create too much debris that is guaranteed to get into the crankcase and coolant passages.

Gun bore brushes and general solvent like carb or brake cleaner are great for cleaning out head bolt holes in the block. .40 or .45 will work. 9mm too small.
Dan,
Great instructions!!! I should not screw it up with your step by step instructions.
While I have the head still in place I took the thermostat housing out. I also found out I don’t have the gasket for that housing. I have ten thousand gaskets but do not have that in my collection. So, another order from MWB.
I took the thermostat housing apart and changed out the thermostat. I am of the belief that that thermostat I had to cut and hammer out was the factory original. It was not only nasty with corrosion and funk but also growing into the housing like a plant. After about 20 mins of trying to gently pull the device out I use a rubber mallet. That worked it damaged the old thermostat (oh darn).
Then I wire brushed all the funk off and cleaned the innards with brake cleaner then reassembled for later.
Tomorrow, maybe I will get to the head.
Thanks again everybody. I am a little nervous about doing this by myself but with all of you behind me and guidance I will be successful.
Mike
Pics of my work below.
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Yes, that sure does look like an original Savara thermostat. Just confirming that you fitted a new rubber ring around the new replacement stat before reinstallation, right?

I know what you mean about gaskets! My habit now is whenever I need to order 2-3 small gaskets for a small job, I order 2 (or 3!) of each gasket. It does not cause the shipping to increase and the next time I need to do that job, I won't have to wait for gaskets and pay another shipping charge. And gaskets will last a long time (but not forever) on the shelf.

The white powdery deposits inside the cooling passages I think are from previous owners not changing coolant frequently enough. I've found that the deposits have to be physically removed, that is by bead blasting or wire brushing or wire wheel on a Dremel.

Your stat housing looks excellent because it does not have any of the quite common aluminum erosion on the hose nipples. I think the erosion happens when the hoses seep and allow coolant to be trapped between the hose and the exterior surface of the nipple--which in turn allows more seepage in a vicious cycle. When severe, it can be repaired by filling in with epoxy and sanding smooth and round.

From a cosmetic standpoint, IMHO painting the bare aluminum components on the top of our engines (stat housing, head, cambox, cambox cover/valve cover, intake manifold runners, intake plenum) gives a very nice appearance, stays cleaner, and is easier to clean when it gets dirty, than just leaving everything bare aluminum even if you scrubbed the living daylights out of everything or even went so far as to have it all bead blasted. On the mentioned items I used Krylon Dull Aluminum #1403 spray paint and really like the results. I did not use a primer but I did take advantage of the bead blaster cabinet at my buddy's machine shop (and subsequent soap and hot water baths) to provide a super clean and textured surface to help the paint stick. The #1403 is not a "high heat" paint pe se but none of this stuff gets hot enough to need it.
 
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Yes, that sure does look like an original Savara thermostat. Just confirming that you fitted a new rubber ring around the new replacement stat before reinstallation, right?

I know what you mean about gaskets! My habit now is whenever I need to order 2-3 small gaskets for a small job, I order 2 (or 3!) of each gasket. It does not cause the shipping to increase and the next time I need to do that job, I won't have to wait for gaskets and pay another shipping charge. And gaskets will last a long time (but not forever) on the shelf.

The white powdery deposits inside the cooling passages I think are from previous owners not changing coolant frequently enough. I've found that the deposits have to be physically removed, that is by bead blasting or wire brushing or wire wheel on a Dremel.

Your stat housing looks excellent because it does not have any of the quite common aluminum erosion on the hose nipples. I think the erosion happens when the hoses seep and allow coolant to be trapped between the hose and the exterior surface of the nipple--which in turn allows more seepage in a vicious cycle. When severe, it can be repaired by filling in with epoxy and sanding smooth and round.

From a cosmetic standpoint, IMHO painting the bare aluminum components on the top of our engines (stat housing, head, cambox, cambox cover/valve cover, intake manifold runners, intake plenum) gives a very nice appearance, stays cleaner, and is easier to clean when it gets dirty, than just leaving everything bare aluminum even if you scrubbed the living daylights out of everything or even went so far as to have it all bead blasted. On the mentioned items I used Krylon Dull Aluminum #1403 spray paint and really like the results. I did not use a primer but I did take advantage of the bead blaster cabinet at my buddy's machine shop (and subsequent soap and hot water baths) to provide a super clean and textured surface to help the paint stick. The #1403 is not a "high heat" paint pe se but none of this stuff gets hot enough to need it.
Dan,
Yes, the o-ring is in the thermostat. I even order one because I didn’t think I had one but the thermostat came with one and a gasket (or a few years ago I put them together and just don’t remember).
I went back outside and looked at the thermostat housing and there is a lot of the white powder stuff but not everywhere. I will wire brush and cloth sand it all out later.
That is going to be great once I finish.
I will try to use the paint you suggested. Makes sense and will keep better. Unfortunately, I don’t have the resources to bead blast so I have use the cloth sandpaper and wire brush but it will still be better than bare aluminum.
Will continue tomorrow morning and will finish the little stuff and completely pull the head.
See ya,
Mike
 
Update;
I got the head off and it was actually really easy. Just pulled off. The bolts came out great except one.
The head was really dirty. I took the time to wire brush all the dirt off the exterior of the head. I is actually really nice underneath. Either it came painted silver or someone painted it sometime.
Anyway, here are the raw pics just after I pulled off the head. To me, it seemed there was a lot of clogged antifreeze holes. I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary but I am not an expert. Please, take a look and tell me what you think?
Then, I used 8000 grit sandpaper to clean the gasket spaces.
Let me j me what you think so far. I used very large format pics.
Also, is it really necessary to have the head shaved? I looked up the cost and $500-$700 is something I don’t have right now.
Mike
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Then, I used 8000 grit sandpaper to clean the gasket spaces.

What do you mean by this? You need to either have the head decked or use a very large flat surface to sand on, you don't want to 'spot' sand either the block or the head...

Since the gasket blocks or restricts a bunch of the passages, it's not abnormal to get some 'mung' buildup, should flush the block though.
 
What do you mean by this? You need to either have the head decked or use a very large flat surface to sand on, you don't want to 'spot' sand either the block or the head...

Since the gasket blocks or restricts a bunch of the passages, it's not abnormal to get some 'mung' buildup, should flush the block though.
So, take the head somewhere to have it checked and properly shaved if needed.
That is going to take a while to find a place that will do it and the funds.
Oh well, I will keep doing things while in there. Next is the engine mount I couldn’t get to earlier.
I am glad the gunk is normal. Had me worried.
The gasket looked okay from what I could tell but I am not an expert.
8000 grit sandpaper is for polishing very fragile stuff. It is also good at precise cleaning of engine parts. Worked well in getting the stains off and residue from the old gaskets. Doesn’t do anything to the metal.
Anyway, going to be researching some more for a shop with a good reputation to take the head to.
Thanks,
Mike
 
I dont see any areas of the gasket that look damaged. I am looking on my phone, so maybe I just can't see it?
 
So, take the head somewhere to have it checked and properly shaved if needed.
That is going to take a while to find a place that will do it and the funds.
Oh well, I will keep doing things while in there. Next is the engine mount I couldn’t get to earlier.
I am glad the gunk is normal. Had me worried.
The gasket looked okay from what I could tell but I am not an expert.
8000 grit sandpaper is for polishing very fragile stuff. It is also good at precise cleaning of engine parts. Worked well in getting the stains off and residue from the old gaskets. Doesn’t do anything to the metal.
Anyway, going to be researching some more for a shop with a good reputation to take the head to.
Thanks,
Mike

A local machine shop only charged me $50 to deck my head and bead blast it . . . there must have been some kind of misunderstanding if someone quoted you $500 . . .

Buy yourself a precision straight edge and some feeler gauges. If the block and head are flat then there's no need to deck them besides just cleaning.
 
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So, take the head somewhere to have it checked and properly shaved if needed.
That is going to take a while to find a place that will do it and the funds.
Oh well, I will keep doing things while in there. Next is the engine mount I couldn’t get to earlier.
I am glad the gunk is normal. Had me worried.
The gasket looked okay from what I could tell but I am not an expert.
8000 grit sandpaper is for polishing very fragile stuff. It is also good at precise cleaning of engine parts. Worked well in getting the stains off and residue from the old gaskets. Doesn’t do anything to the metal.
Anyway, going to be researching some more for a shop with a good reputation to take the head to.
Thanks,
Mike

The pics are very clear and high res, but it's still hard to judge whether something that looks good or looks like a problem in 2D on the computer screen is, in 3D reality, good or not good.

Based on your description "I do have coolant in the oil. It is not a normal color, greyish strange color and there is more liquid than I had last time I checked the oil. Something is in there and I hope it is coolant and not something foreign..." I was looking for a path for coolant to get into the oil.

On the SOHC engine, there is only one passage for pressurized oil from the block up thru the head into the cam box, so that oil can lube the valve train (cam and its bearings, lobes, buckets, etc), that is the hole at "P" in a edited version of one of your pics below. The "D" holes are the gravity drainback passages from the cambox thru the head and back into the block and sump.


tavalin-cyl-head.jpg


The area around "P" above looks good. But, the two circled areas in the pic below look like they might be showing evidence of a coolant leak toward the oil drainbacks, but as mentioned sometimes it's tricky looking for a 3D defect in a 2D image.

tavalin-head-gasket.jpg


The combustion chamber rings on the gasket look very good, and the combustion chambers themselves look normal and remarkably consistent, as do the piston tops.

Rotate the crank and closely inspect the cylinder bores, looking for any surface defects and for uniformity of appearance from one to the other.

Your head gasket and combustion chamber and piston top coloring don't show evidence of coolant getting into the combustion chambers, so IMO it's probable that the cyl head is not warped from overheating---but the explanation for the coolant in the oil condition remains to be discovered.

To have it checked for flatness, a machine shop should not charge more than a half-hour's shoptime (will really only take 10-15 min), so I would think $50 or less. If they find it to be out of spec and want to resurface, expect to pay at least 1-1/2 hours of shoptime (the SOHC head requires a little more setup time on the resurfacer due to to its angled cam box surface), more if they use a abrasive-based resurfacing method since the abrasive has to be cleaned from the assembled head, which takes time. (Most shops using an abrasive resurfacing method will want to disassemble the head before resurfacing because the grit finds its way in every nook and cranny and pore.) Cutting-tool based resurfacers are more forgiving as the swarf is bigger, does not seem to embed itself like stone dust, and is easier to clean from an assembled head.

IMO it's not practical to buy a precision straightedge just to check one head. Quality machinists straightedges go for $159.99 and up. Actually they are getting away from straightedges and going to precision ground tool steel round bar, which is better at helping to find head and block warpage. I don't know if I would trust a $25 "straightedge" from Amazon or eBay.
 
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