Roobus's K20A2-Powered LBZ on BaT

Longitudinal

True Classic

Not exactly in the sweet spot for us, but I'm sure there are some LBZ owners here. I performed the basic integration of the K20A2 powertrain, which is to say that I got the engine mounted. I was supposed to build the whole car, but a lot of life happened and prevented me from proceeding. Gerald took the car home and got it to the point it is at on his own.

I can say that it's a very solid car--and the engine is not going to fall out. :)
 
Sadly, I came down with COVID at the wrong time and never made it up there to get a look.

(The Commentariot comments on BAT are always pretty funny.)

I'll need to put in a bid, methinks.

<edited> Bid Placed. I really like where Roobus was going with this build.
 
95% of the whiners that the Lancia engine does not have enough power cannot drive the car over 75%.

Who is Lancia Dave?
Is LanciaDave a regular here? I don't recognize him from Lancisti.

The Lancia engine has a lot of potential, but I do own both a '77 Scorpion and a '77 911. Both stock and both a delight. But, I know which one's going to get me across the Angeles Crest first.
 
I like it. I bought an LBZ in 1999 or 2000 when I was 18 or 19. I thought it would be cool to go all Guy Croft on it and get 140-200hp. The options for doing that were difficult and expensive. These days, there are engine donors that can get there.
 
95% of the whiners that the Lancia engine does not have enough power cannot drive the car over 75%.

Whether or not that is true, there are some basic power needs that have nothing to do with driver skill. The scenario I always offer is trying to merge onto a crowded freeway in which easily three out of four cars in the right lane are trying to block you from entering the freeway because "me first." You've got 50-100 yards to find a place before you run out of space. Is this a time for a car that goes 40-70 in fifteen seconds?

That merging scenario is my daily reality. Many share this reality; American roads are a lot more competitive than they used to be, and, making bad worse is the fact that modern cars are more powerful than they used to be. I hate it. I really hate it. But it is reality. If you live on a country road and don't have to compete with anybody, then your stock LBZ will do fine. But there is an extent to which horsepower is a safety device.

OK, safety is NOT the reason that you K swap an LBZ or an X1/9. But it's an excellent way to pitch the idea to your wife.
 
The Lancia engine has a lot of potential

It does, but oh, the cost of unlocking that potential! Is it equal to the cost of a K swap? Probably not, but it is costly--and 220HP out of a NA DOHC engine isn't going to be NEARLY as user-friendly as 220HP (stock power) out of a K20A2. We're talking big gnarly cams and big Weber carburetors to get there. Of course, there's a lot of porting as well. But, if properly done, the porting won't harm drivability.

I really like the DOHC engine. I would be more inclined to play with it if I knew more about the transmission and how much power it can take. The 124 transmissions can't take all that much abuse before breaking. I doubt that the Beta transmission is any better.
 
It does, but oh, the cost of unlocking that potential! Is it equal to the cost of a K swap? Probably not, but it is costly--and 220HP out of a NA DOHC engine isn't going to be NEARLY as user-friendly as 220HP (stock power) out of a K20A2. We're talking big gnarly cams and big Weber carburetors to get there. Of course, there's a lot of porting as well. But, if properly done, the porting won't harm drivability.

I really like the DOHC engine. I would be more inclined to play with it if I knew more about the transmission and how much power it can take. The 124 transmissions can't take all that much abuse before breaking. I doubt that the Beta transmission is any better.
Yeah, and this is a strange admission to make in front of X-men, but the other nice thing about the K20 in an LBZ? It just FITS so much better than it does in an X1/9. High redline, great area-under-the-curve and Honda reliability? I really like this combo.
 
Yeah, and this is a strange admission to make in front of X-men, but the other nice thing about the K20 in an LBZ? It just FITS so much better than it does in an X1/9. High redline, great area-under-the-curve and Honda reliability? I really like this combo.

It does. If I recall correctly, there was no clearance cutting on either side of the powertrain. You can see that the engine looks relatively centered. In the X, the engine is squeezed basically as far to the right as it will fit because the trans would otherwise push through the inner fender on the left side.

For the record, on Gerald's LBZ, I used some aftermarket K swap mounts that he bought for the left and right pivot mounts. I then built fixtures on the body to receive those mounts. For handling torque, I built a fixture at the back of the subframe for a BMW E30 engine mount and a mount arm on the trans to reach down to that. On the front of the engine, I use a Ford Focus dog bone attached to an arm on the engine block and a fixture on the body. I'm a little fuzzy on this now, but I think I ran a length of square tube across the body from left to right for the fixture to weld to. It's fairly straightforward compared to what has to be done in an X.
 
It does. If I recall correctly, there was no clearance cutting on either side of the powertrain. You can see that the engine looks relatively centered. In the X, the engine is squeezed basically as far to the right as it will fit because the trans would otherwise push through the inner fender on the left side.

For the record, on Gerald's LBZ, I used some aftermarket K swap mounts that he bought for the left and right pivot mounts. I then built fixtures on the body to receive those mounts. For handling torque, I built a fixture at the back of the subframe for a BMW E30 engine mount and a mount arm on the trans to reach down to that. On the front of the engine, I use a Ford Focus dog bone attached to an arm on the engine block and a fixture on the body. I'm a little fuzzy on this now, but I think I ran a length of square tube across the body from left to right for the fixture to weld to. It's fairly straightforward compared to what has to be done in an X.
Thanks for all that color.
As it happens, I have another rust-free X swap candidate in the shop and we're busily scratching our heads because the gearbox is clearly the limiting factor on putting a non-Fiat transmission in there. Until we had the single-cam and transaxle out of that Bertone? No clue. I guess I'd never realized how the unique shape of the 1300/1500-transaxle combo allowed it to fit in there so neatly. And, Honda and GTS and F23 and F40 gearboxes don't appear to fit very well at all. The engine block's the least of the problem, to our eye. But getting the trans to fit? Big issue.
I'd guess tthe end of the Honda box would be really jammed into that fender well on the driver's side.

I'm in the middle of another project right now, but may hit you up sometime about help on that X. It's a nice car, but none of our great ideas fit. Do you know if the Lancia 5-speed fits anywhere as well as the Fiat unit does?

Thanks!
 
Someone put a K engine in a scorpion and it fit really well, I talked to Matt about it and they said they have the dimensions for the different length driveshafts.

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I don’t get relocating the battery into the engine compartment when the car is better balanced with more weight up front. Not to mention it’s mounted over the hot exhaust.
 
Someone put a K engine in a scorpion and it fit really well, I talked to Matt about it and they said they have the dimensions for the different length driveshafts.

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That looks amazing. To the naked eye it seems like the Scorpion has SO much more room back there-- and it certainly looks like that K-series fits with a lot less cutting and grease to slide it into place.

I've always wanted to put a Busso in my Scorpion, but the reality is that the K20/24 will make more power, with more a "more usable fun under the curve" output plot, a higher redline and better service life. The Alfa 164 gearbox is OK, but those Hondas have such a delightful snik-snik on the gear changes.
 
I don’t get relocating the battery into the engine compartment when the car is better balanced with more weight up front. Not to mention it’s mounted over the hot exhaust.
Agree completely. That spot over the engine always seemed like a terrible place for either the spare or the battery.
 
To the naked eye it seems like the Scorpion has SO much more room back there-- and it certainly looks like that K-series fits with a lot less cutting and grease to slide it into place.

True! I have never closely inspected a Scorpion to know exactly what the differences between an X and a Scorpion are, but knowing what the X looks like around the K's crank pulley, I can see that the engine fits way better in the Scorpion.
 
As it happens, I have another rust-free X swap candidate in the shop and we're busily scratching our heads because the gearbox is clearly the limiting factor on putting a non-Fiat transmission in there. Until we had the single-cam and transaxle out of that Bertone? No clue. I guess I'd never realized how the unique shape of the 1300/1500-transaxle combo allowed it to fit in there so neatly. And, Honda and GTS and F23 and F40 gearboxes don't appear to fit very well at all. The engine block's the least of the problem, to our eye. But getting the trans to fit? Big issue.
I'd guess tthe end of the Honda box would be really jammed into that fender well on the driver's side.

I'm in the middle of another project right now, but may hit you up sometime about help on that X. It's a nice car, but none of our great ideas fit. Do you know if the Lancia 5-speed fits anywhere as well as the Fiat unit does?

You're welcome any time.

GTS is Celica GTS? I don't know F23 and F40, except the obvious F40, and I know you don't have one of those transmissions. o_O

Yeah, it seems that FIAT did a great job of building the SOHC transmissions to fit that notch in the body. :) Most any other trans is going to require some cutting on the left side unless the engine is narrow enough to allow the trans to move far enough right to clear the rail.

The engine block is a simpler shape that, due to its height, is going to have to fit beside the rail without penetrating into it. But it's still a factor because it pushes the transmission to the left in order to fit. Given the same trans width, I think it would be a struggle to fit an engine any wider than a K20 into an X. One member here has a plan to install a 07K VW engine (late model I5) into an X. The VW 02M trans that would mount to that engine is compact, maybe compact enough to make it work without extensive cutting. We shall see...

Regarding the Lancia box for the twin cam, I don't think it would fit any better than a Honda trans. They're pretty bulky compared to the slim little SOHC unit. I would like to think that all of that bulk brings strength, but I don't know how good the twin cam unit is. As I said somewhere above, not knowing how strong the trans is has always kept me away from the DOHC engines. The DOHC engine really is a strong engine with a pretty good cylinder head for its time, but I would be afraid to build something powerful then not be able to keep a transmission together. Regarding as a whole a DOHC swap into an X, I don't think it would be any easier or more natural than any other non-native swap. A miss is as good as a mile, and all of the mounting fixtures and locations are different. As many have surely said before (including me,) I really wish that FIAT had just built the X with the DOHC engine in the first case. I can't see it costing THAT much more, and it would have made the X a wholly different car with a lot more performance and potential as built. It's not that the SOHC engine can't be made to perform, but the DOHC would have done everything better and made it more of the "baby Ferrari" that was advertised.
 
True! I have never closely inspected a Scorpion to know exactly what the differences between an X and a Scorpion are, but knowing what the X looks like around the K's crank pulley, I can see that the engine fits way better in the Scorpion.

Since the Scorpion was designed to have the Fiat 130 V6 prior to the fuel crisis it was designed with plenty of engine compartment space. Also seen utilized by being able to mount engine and trans longitudinal ala 037. People have done Thelma, Busso, Subaru H6,....swaps.

In mine with DOHC and the fuel tank moved up front I can climb in the engine compartment and close the lid.

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