Because this thread has comments about two different transmissions with completely different circumstances it could get a little confusing which one is being referred to when new comments are made. Not criticizing, just saying, in order to help prevent miscommunication.

Rodger, check your in-box.
 
I have bought some really great parts from them and I don't want to start another Vendor bashing thread but......when I rebuilt my trans last year I used a new 1st / 2nd gear slider from them that was out of spec, which I didn't know until I tried to drive it and couldn't shift from first to second without a Big Crunch.
Ended up going through the whole process again and using a used OE slider I found on eBay, got lucky on that find.
After further investigation I did not purchase the out of spec slider from Eurosport, my apologies to the Vendor.
 
Time for an update. I communicated with Claire at Eurosport and she was very responsive when I complained about the synchros. She said that these synchros were from a different supplier in Italy than she has typically used in the past, but she has not had any complaints about them before. She had just got another batch of synchros from her usual supplier and she compared the gaps between the two batches with a used 2nd gear that she uses for reference and there was definitely a larger gap with the newer batch. She sent me two from the new batch and they were much better. :)

What she also did was send some nice pictures of some 2nd gear cones for me to use as reference to compare to mine. Here they are:
This is a new 2nd gear showing the sharp, unworn ridges on the cone.
new.jpg

This is a reconditioned one that they sell.
recon.jpg

Here is a used one that has some flattening of the cone ridges, but still okay.
used.jpg


Last, there is this one that is really worn out.
worn.jpg


Here is mine that looks a lot like the used photo from Claire.
2nd gear worn 02.JPG


Here is a new OEM 2nd gear that I got from Italy, thanks to a link from Doug Martin (rx1900). ;)
2nd gear new 02.JPG


I tried to source some OEM Fiat synchros, but the two I ordered from an Italian parts site, turned out to be too small, even though they claimed they were genuine Fiat parts and even had the correct part number. They are on the way back to Italy for a refund.

So I have started to put the transaxle back together, using the new gear I bought, and the new synchros from Eurosport. Here is the gap now, 2.05 mm vs. 1.25 mm with my used gear and the worn out synchros.
2nd gear new with new synchro 01.JPG


While I had the transaxle apart, I decided to change the main carrier bearings. I took the differential and case halves to a local AAMCO place to have the bearings and races changed as I don't have the right kind of pullers. The guy was very informative. He has an MGB, so he knows about older transmissions. He swapped out the bearings and races for me and also gave me a good tip on evaluating the synchros. He said that when you put the synchro on the cone and give it a little twist, you should be able to pick up the gear with the synchro if it is good. If the synchro is worn out, the gear will just fall off. He was right.
 
I've been away from the garage for quite a while as I have been transitioning my practice to a new owner. Lots to do with that so no time for Fiats. I will be cutting back to just working two days a week so hopefully I will get more garage time in the future. I finally found some time in the past couple of days and got the transaxle back together with new 1st/2nd synchros, new 2nd gear and bushing, and a new 5th gear shift fork. The 3rd/4th synchros, 3rd gear, 1st/2nd slider, and reverse idler gear had been replaced when I had it apart it about 5K miles ago so they were still in like new condition. I got it buttoned up and back in the car today. Boy, is that a job trying to wrestle that into position doing it solo!:eek: Last time I did the transmission, the engine was also out of the car, so I put the whole drive train back in as a unit. Much easier. I gave my extra flywheel to Mezzanine in exchange for him turning them on his lathe to lighten them up some. He said that he took about two pounds off of each one. I also swapped out the final drive for the taller one from a Strada so it will be interesting to see the difference in how it performs.

Still on the to do list is replacing the wheel bearings, putting the pedal box back together with my re-sleeved Fiat brake master cylinder, replacing all of the fluid supply hoses, stainless flex hoses to the calipers, new front struts, and NOS Ansa quad tip exhaust. Now I know what folks mean about project creep. But, since we are in now in the liquid sunshine season here in the NW, there is no rush to get out and drive on sunny days. I do want to get my '79 back together and then I can get back to the K20 project. :)
 
Thought that it was time to give a report on how this rebuild turned out. Not so great, actually. In spite of the new synchros, I was still getting the crunch from 1st to 2nd, although not quite as often, but the 3-2 shift was just as bad. The only thing that was good, was the Strada final drive change. Yes, the car did not quite have the acceleration of the line as before, but it was still pretty good. Plus, it runs up to a higher speed in each gear, so it almost seems to accelerate better. I found that cruising at highway speeds was much more relaxing with the RPMs about 500 less than before.

Right about the time I was wrapping up my rebuild, the thread from Steve Hoelscher offering to do a run of transmission rebuilds appeared. Had it been a couple of months earlier, I would have definitely sent mine to Steve to do. But, better late than never. I communicated with Steve, pulled the transmission again and shipped it off to him. He just wrapped it up and is sending it back shortly. Steve can weigh in on what he found if he wants, but basically, he is not a fan of the aftermarket synchros that I used, or even the 3-4 synchros from the earlier rebuild. They just don't have good action or longevity. Also, the 1-2 slider was looking pretty sad. Apparently, that was also not an OEM Fiat part and did not perform or hold up well. The problem, as we all know, is that OEM Fiat parts are just no longer available or extremely hard to find or really expensive. He also found a broken centering spring on the translator linkage that I had not noticed that was the reason why sometimes, the shifter would get hung up going into 4th gear. Steve fortunately has sources for and a stash of parts as well as his expertise in massaging these transmissions back to perfection. Looking forward to getting it back and thanks to Steve for taking mine on. :)
 
I was just thinking about you the other day, wondering how it went with the latest bunch of parts in your trans. Unfortunately that is not good news. I'd hoped you found a good source for syncros and such. Surprising brand new parts still "crunched". Did Steve mention how much of the issue was due to the non-stock components vs due to the other problems he found inside?
I also just read your post on the other thread about the final drive ratio change. The post here helps explain the effect you found with the change, thanks.
 
Roger's report is pretty much on the mark. 1st and 2nd gear synchros were after-market, as were the 3rd and 4th. Sadly, I have never found aftermarket synchros that worked nearly as well as the OE units. Some aftermarket are better than others but none are as good. The 1-2 synchros he used were probably the worst I have seen for performance. Fortunately, I have a stash of OE 1st/2nd synchros. Unfortunately, I long ago exhausted my stash of 3rd/4th OE synchros. I have found a source for effective after-market 3-4 synchros but unfortunately they are expensive and won't last forever. They do work pretty well though.

Sadly, there is little that can be done for the sliding sleeves. NOS 1-2 sliders are still out there but prohibitively expensive. Same for the 3-4 sliders. Some after-market parts are adequate but are not as durable and don't perform to OE levels. But they are available and obviously are preferred over ruined OE parts. The aftermarket 1-2 slider in Roger's transmission had been pretty beat up from the poor synchro performance. Its replacement should last longer with good synchros.

Its important to note; I don't blame the vendors for the quality of the transmission parts they sell. I understand the situation and appreciate that they offer what's available. Its better than nothing. I recently got to drive one of the units from this current batch of builds and was pleased with how well it worked so I can get by with these parts for now.

A couple of notes about the build. Roger, what was the blue stuff coating the gaskets? Its not RTV and doesn't appear to be assembly lube or gasket adhesive. It was a pain to get off everything so I am curious. :) Roger had replaced the diff bearings and they were in good condition but the race pressed in the case a funny pattern on it. I have occasionally seen a race that wouldn't seat properly in the case so I pulled it and mic'ed it. It was pretty much perfect and the pattern didn't seem to be hurting anything so I put it back in and checked that it was seated squarely in the case again. The diff spins perfectly so I am confident its fine. While we're on the subject of bearings there was an odd ring pattern on the input and pinion roller bearings. The input bearing rarely fails unless the oil gets contaminated but the pinion bearings chew themselves and the pinion shaft race up regularly. Both bearings had that odd ring pattern that I have never seen before. No real idea what could have cause it, or if it was really a problem, so I replaced them. The unit gets packed tomorrow and headed back to the PACNW.
 
A couple of notes about the build. Roger, what was the blue stuff coating the gaskets? Its not RTV and doesn't appear to be assembly lube or gasket adhesive. It was a pain to get off everything so I am curious.
Sorry about that, Steve. The blue stuff is Hylomar gasket sealant. That is what Bernice recommended in her thread series on rebuilding the transmission. I agree it is very sticky as it does not set. I recall seeing somewhere that they make a removal solvent for it.
 
Steve's comments about the availability of trans parts reminds me of the same discussion many years ago with the 124 trans. Same scenario, NOS not available or ridiculously priced, and aftermarket stuff being hit or miss. Over in the world of older VW transaxles there seems to be a good selection of aftermarket components, and at very decent prices. Guess the Fiat demand isn't nearly as great and therefore doesn't attract the better makers?
 
Sorry about that, Steve. The blue stuff is Hylomar gasket sealant. That is what Bernice recommended in her thread series on rebuilding the transmission. I agree it is very sticky as it does not set. I recall seeing somewhere that they make a removal solvent for it.

That makes sense. It no problem but I was curious. There really is no need for gasket adhesive. If its a proper gasket, the surface was properly prepared and the bolts properly torqued, the gasket seals fine. I prefer not to use gaskets on most builds. I have had customers concerned that I didn't use a gasket set and seemed to question my not using them, thus I have built more units with gaskets that without recently. I built yours without because the diff preload didn't want to work out with gaskets. That's often the case with replacement bearings.
 
I built yours without because the diff preload didn't want to work out with gaskets. That's often the case with replacement bearings.
I recall one box design (non-Fiat) where different thickness gaskets were used as the means of setting diff pre-load (not the best system in my opinion).
 
Difficulty with sourcing known good quality parts is another reminder these gear boxes are no longer low cost to keep working properly.

-Take good care of these gear boxes by using the very best gear oil available, do not abuse them during shifts. With proper care these gear boxes do go a long ways.

Quandary now, market value for the exxe remains low, parts and care cost continue to rise making ownership for some not viable or attractive. Moto media publications continue to toot about the low purchase cost, modest running cost,and easy market availability of an exxe. This is not longer really true or correct as the number of exxe on the road and available for purchase continues to decline each year.


Bernice
 
Quandary now, market value for the exxe remains low, parts and care cost continue to rise making ownership for some not viable or attractive. Moto media publications continue to toot about the low purchase cost, modest running cost,and easy market availability of an exxe. This is not longer really true or correct as the number of exxe on the road and available for purchase continues to decline each year.
Amen to that. :)

Difficulty with sourcing known good quality parts is another reminder these gear boxes are no longer low cost to keep working properly.
These points could almost be an argument toward justifying a power train swap; to get a reliable/powerful/easy to maintain unit. But it might also be an argument not to; the cost of doing a swap puts the vehicle way out of its value range. Maybe best to do as stated here:
-Take good care of these gear boxes by using the very best gear oil available, do not abuse them during shifts. With proper care these gear boxes do go a long ways.
;)
 
These points could almost be an argument toward justifying a power train swap; to get a reliable/powerful/easy to maintain unit. But it might also be an argument not to; the cost of doing a swap puts the vehicle way out of its value range.
Good thing for @Rodger - he gets to have both a stock X and a K-swapped X (best of both worlds). I'd nominate him to do a long term study on the cost benefit of the swap, but I'm pretty sure you can buy the same X three or four times before you break even.

Good thing it's quicker/faster.
 
Roger's completed unit ready for packing and shipment. :)
0418181228.jpg
0418181228a.jpg

This is a comparison photo of the translator. The spring is supposed to center the shifter. The upper unit is the one with the broken spring. Not a common failure but I do see it from time to time. Easier to replace the assembly then change the spring due to the pivot bolt being staked.



0415181741.jpg


I have built a few VW transmissions and you are right, parts are plentiful and cheap. Remember, there were probably more VWs built using those transmissions in any single year of production than all of the X1/9s for the entire production life. Also, VW has had a consistent presence in the US since the 1950s. And when they phased out a model they simply moved the plant to a third world country to build and sell those obsolete models there. So those parts have been in continuous production, somewhere in the world, for decades. Fiat, unfortunately, sold their old production lines to former Soviet Satellite nations and have since been left to ruin.

I have friends who race 1980s era Hondas that have _been_ complaining about the lack of available parts for some time. Honda didn't follow the VW model and ship old manufacturing lines to places like South America. They just shut them down.

I know there is a lot of discussion about engine swaps. Yes, the K Swap is a great swap but there are also other good options that might be significantly easier and cheaper. A 1st Generation MR2 (1600 4AGE) is a logical one. Not only because of the mid-engine layout but the engine would be a logical progression of the Fiat SOHC. The engine has similar character and excellent performance. And while we're on the Toyota theme, my choice for a swap (were I looking to do one) would be the Toyota 2ZZ-GE. Similar in architecture to the Honda K series it is a 190 HP 1800 that comfortably revs to 8500 rpm with a broad torque curve and buttery smoothness. And they can be bought for probably half the price of the K Series. My present daily commuter is a 2004 Celica GTS with this very engine. Its a very quick car. My guess would be that dropping that driveline into a car that's some 600 lbs lighter would result in true super-car performance.
 
I recall one box design (non-Fiat) where different thickness gaskets were used as the means of setting diff pre-load (not the best system in my opinion).

Yeah, that would suck. Like Fiat SOHC mechanical fuel pump gaskets. :)

Another reason I prefer not to use a gasket is it makes for a far more consistent and stable diff preload.
 
Getting a little off topic here, sorry. I'm not at all versed on Japanese power plants. Are the Toyota units you reference all aluminum engines (head and block)? Also agree about the relative cost of Honda power; seems to have become the desired donor for lots of swaps and the prices have gone up accordingly. I recall when they were plentiful and cheap, low mileage used from the parts importers (those take-out engine/trans units after the vehicles reached the mileage limit for emissions regulations over there). Not any more.
 
My only experience is with the K20a. I went with that because MWB offered a great kit that provides most of the pieces that I couldn't make and they had already worked out a lot of the details. Plus there is a lot of support out there in swap land for the K20a with companies like Hondata, K-Tuned, Hybrid Racing, etc.
 
Getting a little off topic here, sorry. I'm not at all versed on Japanese power plants. Are the Toyota units you reference all aluminum engines (head and block)? Also agree about the relative cost of Honda power; seems to have become the desired donor for lots of swaps and the prices have gone up accordingly. I recall when they were plentiful and cheap, low mileage used from the parts importers (those take-out engine/trans units after the vehicles reached the mileage limit for emissions regulations over there). Not any more.


Yes, the 2ZZ-GE is an all aluminum engine. It has a similar valve train arrangement with variable valve timing and a two stage lift. The higher performance cam lobe is engaged at 6500 rpm. The difference is significant. The 2ZZ-GE is the motor used in the current generation Lotus Elise. I very much like the engine. Its very interesting in its own right. Its power/displacement ratio is similar or better than the K20. Its also lighter and more compact than the Honda. I think its smoother, has better power delivery and is more robust than the Honda. But we are only talking a matter of degrees at this point.

I have investigated doing a 2ZZ-GE swap in my MR2 racecar and going to the top level prepared category class, XP. I can buy an engine and 6 speed transmission, in good condition for approximately $1500, with an ECU and wiring harness. The same setup for a K20 is roughly $4-5000 for an SI engine/transmission.

I know that MWB has made the K20 swap very easy with their kit and the results are spectacular. I certainly don't mean to knock that swap. Heck I built the transmission that went in the first one MWB did. But, I am also something of a Black Sheep and don't typically follow conventional wisdom. ;)
 
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