Soliciting for opinion - VERY pointed question.

lezesig1

expatriot
Could use a second opinion on this one THANKS upfront.

It is my contention that either a DIN, or a SAE bubble flare will seat well in a given female fitting.

...afterall the face is the same hemisperical shape and it is only the jam nut from the backside that is a different form.





They both should smear into identical shape on the face after final torque is applied.

Thoughts ?

out for now,

lezesig
'72 850 Sp


PS. ((In the same study, has bearing, but not specific to this issue (I think)) I have only found reference to a 37 degree flare in reference to a SINGLE INVERTED FLARE. Something much different than a bubble flare.
 
You have an application for an SAE bubble flare? Man, you are making me curious.... That's a long-obsolete British standard.

I presume that you're looking to use DIN bubble-flared tubing in an SAE bubble fitting, because there's no reason why you'd ever want to go the other way - DIN bubble-flared tubing and the DIN bubble flare tools are cheap and easy to find.

One slightly confusing thing about your illustration is that I wouldn't call either of those flares a "single" flare, although they are certainly different from the SAE inverted double flare.

FedHill USA has this to say: http://www.cunifer.com/?page=tech2#17. There's also a picture of an SAE bubble fitting down at the bottom of http://www.fedhillusa.com/webnuts/common flares6.pdf.

So I suppose that if you trust FedHill and you really are trying to mate a modern DIN bubble flare to an old SAE bubble fitting, you can.

But I've never tried it, and they're your brakes not mine. If they kill you I will show up at the funeral and try to buy your used Fiat parts from your family.
 
BRILLIANT info, Eric........!!

.....FedHill USA has this to say: http://www.cunifer.com/?page=tech2#17. There's also a picture of an SAE bubble fitting down at the bottom of http://www.fedhillusa.com/webnuts/common flares6.pdf....

Wow, thanks for posting this "braking connections" info!! :clap:

Down here in NZ, there are still many vintage/old Brit vehicles that are being rebuilt/restored, and braking system "oddities" are one of the MAJOR problems our guys run into! It seems that, back in the day, the numerous British car manufacturers would source their brake system componentry from whatever supplier would meet their "contract price target" on the day!!
Consequently, as an example, you could find that 1940/50's era Rootes Group (Hillman/Humber/Singer) vehicles, while being manufactured by the same company, might have totally different suppliers of the braking systems to the individual make - a hellish ordeal for the parts divisions of these makes!!

Your above posted info will be a "godsend" :worship: to some of us poor (maybe crazy) Kiwi's trying to restore these cars today!!

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
The "bubble flare" goes back to the days of the first Girling disc brakes, some time in the 1950's. This was their solution to a low cost tube flare that could be mass produced, hold a few thousand PSI of pressure. Eventually, the bubble flare evolved into the DIN bubble flare found on many brake systems today. In America, the 45 degree SAE double flare became the standard.

The Girling bubble flare and DIN bubble flare is basically interchangeable except for the difference between the tube nut. Note the modern DIN tube nut require a radii at the end of the tube nut where it meets bubble flared end. This was done to reduce the sharp transition between the tube and bubble flared end.

On the Facom 347 flaring tool, there are tube dies for both SAE and DIN, difference being the DIN die has a relief area to produce a radii at the tube to flare transition. Bubble forming die are the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfAoHE_L2aI


Given the choice, neither would be used as all three Girling bubble flare, DIN bubble flare and SAE 45 degree double internal flare are not intended to be re-used more than a few times. Doing so often results in poor sealing and leaks from work hardening of the flared tube end. This is similar to what happens to copper crush washers after they have been crushed, work hardened and refuse to seal.

For fluid system built from scratch, the preferred tube flare is 37 degree single aka AN or JIC. These flares do not rely on forcing the end of the tube into a seat creating a seal by using the elasticity of the metal tube. These single flares seal by compression against angled surfaces and have few problem re-sealing after taken apart. Over torquing these fittings is often the cause of these flares to fail or grit, dirt and similar that ends up on the flare surface.

This is why the 37 degree single flare has become so common in aircraft, real race cars and industry where serviceability, reliability, durability and leak free fluid systems are more important than lowest production cost.

In all cases, poor quality tube flaring tools will result in awful off center or non-spec conforming flares which will result in problems.

If brake lines are in question use copper-nickel alloy brake line as it is easy to work with and corrosion resistant.
http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake-tube/brake.html

It is worth noting not all 37 degree fittings are created equal, recently on the LeMons racer, we ended up with new "Aeroquip" 37 degree hose ends that were not as advertised, they leaked and caused severe damage to the fitting end of this hose. Check and verify all hose ends and fittings are to spec and properly made.

Citroen has their very own tube flare design.
http://www.pwpnet.pl/index.php?l=en&s=pro&f=ind

Citroen used non-standard metric tubing along with their propriety flare. It's very French, came to mind after thinking about the DS21 stuff that made it so very different.


Bernice
 
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Note this chart... Download via Adobe...

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrT...res6.pdf/RK=0/RS=DNl24fKX7yVktlHq8UQ_9b9wXjo-

It shows in the middle of the first page a DIN/ISO Bubble flare on the left side and down on the right lower side of the same page it shows flare comparisons and nuts... with what SHOULD be used and what SHOULD not be used.

Not exactly as the ones you pictured... but close. I read Bernice's reply but I don't think she answered your question except to say what should always be done... and neither does this chart either.

I think yur gonna have to try it yourself and see. If this is going on Brake Lines... I would really wanna test it thoroughly with the pressure and lives involved...

Over and out...
 
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You imply 'non structurally acceptable' ?

Eric,
Thanks for your input.

Situation. What is shown on those line drawings, the leftmost, is exactly what was removed from the auto. Stock. O.E.M. Very good seal and structurally sound.

HOWEVER.....the rightmost line drawing is showing us what is being supplied commonly from our preferred vendors as a direct replacement.

As you know, there are different dynamics to the tube end and jamming face of the nut when compared to the original configuration.

I can flare to any form using a very nice forming tool.

Once again...thanks for your input.

out for now,
lezesig '72 850Sp
 
Thanks

Thanks Bernice for your input.


You MAY want to revisit your assertion that a .375-24 will act the same as a 10mm-1.0 flare jam nut in reference to your brake piping discussion. Found via "Search term using BUBBLE".

The thread advance difference between these two THAT negligible ?
Ref: Cast Iron Failure valve-switch body. Won't strip using our standard SAE 3/8-24 ? Huh ? :)



lezesig
'72 850 Sp
 
Thanks,

Thanks for your input Tony.

That hyperlink reference seems to be the internet gospel.

They probably don't point to the parent Spec(s) because of several reasons I would imagine.

out for now,
lezesig '72 850Sp
 
Situation. What is shown on those line drawings, the leftmost, is exactly what was removed from the auto. Stock. O.E.M. Very good seal and structurally sound.
Yep, that's an SAE bubble flare.

HOWEVER.....the rightmost line drawing is showing us what is being supplied commonly from our preferred vendors as a direct replacement.
And that's a DIN bubble flare. It's the only kind that I've seen on any X (except for the SAE inverted double flare at the distribution block next to the master cylinder on some early models).

You said "It is my contention that either a DIN, or a SAE bubble flare will seat well in a given female fitting." and FedHill and Bernice seem to be agreeing with you.
 
Simple Amazing...

I have nothing intelligent to add to this conversation other than to say (with great admiration) how incredibly knowledgeable the members of this Forum are about even the most arcane engineering facts.

I am humbled by the accumulated wisdom.

Happy New Year!

Ed
 
Never asserted this, see recent post.
Doing this will end in tears.

Bernice


Thanks Bernice for your input.


You MAY want to revisit your assertion that a .375-24 will act the same as a 10mm-1.0 flare jam nut in reference to your brake piping discussion. Found via "Search term using BUBBLE".

The thread advance difference between these two THAT negligible ?
Ref: Cast Iron Failure valve-switch body. Won't strip using our standard SAE 3/8-24 ? Huh ? :)



lezesig
'72 850 Sp
 
Indeed Ed... and everyone has something to...

contribute!

Way back in the Old Daze I remember Anthony G saying much of what you said. Within a few months he became the Emulsion Tube - Air Corrector KING of X1/9 Carburetors!

I'm sure one day you'll find your niche... With me... I'm an expert at nothing but I do have 32 years of being a caretaker to my car. Something hadta rub off!

I would love to see one of our members here contribute his/her services as a painter and body-person so all we do is buy the paint.

Then we'd need an Upholstery Guru as well... HA!
 
Flares & Related, 2nd try.

This is the instruction set for the Facom 347 flaring tool illustrating the difference between SAE & DIN bubble flare and the dies / blocks used to make them. They are different, yet generally interchangeable.
Facom%2B347%2Binstruction%2Bsheet.JPG


There is a copy-similar flaring tool sold by Eastwood, no idea if that flaring tool works. Snap-op/blue-point/Eastman-Imperial bubble flaring tool works OK, but not as precise as the Facom 347. There are others and the low cost-cheap flaring tools produce awful flares along with numerous problems that can cause a lot of grief and potential problems when least expected.

Facom 347 SAE flare die & block set. The split block has an angled recess to form the back side of the SAE tube flare. To make a single flare, OP1 die is used alone, to make the SAE 45 degree double both OP1 and OP2 dies are used.
Facom%2B347%2BSAE%2Bdie%2B%26%2Bblock.JPG


Facom 347 DIN bubble flare die & block set. The split block has no real angle at the back side of the tube flare this creates a tight shoulder between the tube and flare end. The DIN bubble flare is a single operation with this die.
Facom%2B347%2C%2BDIN%2Bbubble%2Bdie%2B%26%2BBlock.JPG


DIN die graphic illustrated the seat angle and general shape of the DIN bubble flare. The seat angle range is 113 to 117 degrees.
Facom%2B347%2C%2BDIN%2Bbubble%2Bspec.JPG


DIN bubble flare as formed using the Facom 347 die and block.
DIN%2Bbubble%2Bflare.JPG


OD of the DIN bubble flared end. Measures 0.281".
DIN%2Bbubble%2Bflare%2B0.280%22%2BOD.JPG


SAE bubble flare as formed using the Facom 347 die and block. Note the back side transition of the flared end to the tube being different than the DIN bubble flare.
SAE%3AGirling%2Bbubble_single%2Bflare.JPG


OD of the SAE bubble flared end measures 0.269".
SAE%2Bbubble%2Bflare%2C%2B0.269%22.JPG



SAE 45 degree double flare as formed with the OP2 die after using the OP1 die. The center area is the actual seating and sealing area of this type of flare.
Facom%2B347%2C%2BSAE%2Bdouble%2Bflare%2B45%2Bdegrees.JPG


Back side view of the SAE 45 degree double internal flare illustrating the transition from tube to flared end.
SAE%2B45%2Bdegree%2Bdouble%2B%26%2Bnut.JPG


AN-JIC 37 degree single flare with the tube sleeve behind the flared end. This flared end was made using a Parker aerospace spec flaring tool.
AN-JIC%2B37%2Bdegrees%2Bflare.JPG


AN-JIC 37 degree sigle flare with sleeve, B-nut and matching fitting. This type of flare seals by compression-strecthing the tube end rather than simple compression as with the bubble and SAE 45 degree internal flare. This difference makes these types of flare ends far more reusable with a more reliable seal over repeated cycles of assembly and dis-assembly.

The OD of the flare relative to the sleeve should be equal it the OD is too large, it will not fit into the B-nut, if too small the flare will not seal properly resulting in leaks and other problems.
AN-JIC%2B37%2Bdegree%2Bflare%2B%26%2Bfitting.JPG


3/8"-24 Girling style bubble tube nut. These are common on British cars and cars using Girling brake systems.
3%3A8%22%2BGirling%3ASAE%2Btube%2Bnut.JPG


End view of the 3/8" Girling style tube nut. There is a small chamfer at the ID to support the tube's transition into the flared end.
3%3A8%22%2BGirling%3ASAE%2Btube%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


3/8"-24, SAE 45 degree internal double flare tube nut.
3%3A8%22%2BSAE%2Bdouble%2Bflare%2Btube%2Bnut.JPG


End view of this SAE tube nut. The chamfer is to support the tube to flare transition.
3%3A8%22%2BSAE%2Bdouble%2Bflare%2Btube%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


M10x1.00 DIN tube nut. It is very similar in appearance to the 3/8"-24 GIrling bubble flare tube nut. These can be mixed up with really bad results.
M10x1.00%2Btube%2Bnut.JPG


End view of the M10x1.00 DIN tube nut, it is a bit different than the Girling tube nut, yet similar.
M10x1.25%2Btube%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


M10x1.00, SAE 45 degree internal double flare tube nut. These can be found on Japanese made cars. It is a variant of the SAE version. These are NOT interchanged or used with a bubble flare as the end has a large chamfer causing the bubble to sit too low in the tube nut.
M10x1.00%2BJapan%2Bdouble%2Bflare%2Btube%2Bnut.JPG


End view of this tube nut. The deep chamfer is different from the other tube nut designs.
M10x1.0%2BJapan%2Bdouble%2Bflare%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


M10x1.25 DIN bubble flare long tube nut as used in FIAT brake systems. These are not easily available in the US. They can be ordered in bulk from EU suppliers.
E26c9F_J0_6xgK0M8wTuc-08aKciBR5Xn88EKIXwgDg=w1144-h970-no


End view of the M10x1.25 tube nut.
M10x1.25%2Blong%2Btube%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


Used OEM FIAT, M10x1.25 DIN bubble flare long tube nut. This came from an exxe brake system. The hex is knackared which often happenes due to the nuts getting too happy with the tube, flare seat coupled with various fluids keeps then happy together.
AC9LiHIk0vxfzxJRf8AT6sQ1GzkqE0CF-_PeoAdLPVI=w1074-h970-no


End view of this Fiat tube nut. The end has flared out a bit due to the compression force applied during assembly at Fiat. This is problem varies with the amount of force applied to the joint. If too much force is applied, the flare end, flare seat and tube nut could be damaged causing seeping and leaks. This is why it is not a good idea to "crank down" on tube fittings that do not seal.
M10x1.25%2BFiat%2Btube%2Bnut%2C%2Bend.JPG


Side by side view of the new M10x1.25 tube nut and OEM FIAT tube nut. They are basically identical. Accept no deviations from what is shown if these are to be replaced in a Fiat brake system.
M10x1.25%2Btube%2Bnuts%2C%2BFiat%2BOEM%2B%26%2BNew.JPG


There are numerous warnings and cautions of mixing a 3/8"-24 tube nut with a M10x1.00 tube nut. It is possible to thread the wrong parts together due to their similar thread pitch. Doing so will end in tears and a host of miserable problems for all the parts involved.
3%3A8%2B%26%2BM10x1.00%2Btube%2Bnuts.JPG


Their diameters are different yet similar enough.. The 3/8"-24 tube nut measures 0.370" OD and M10 tube nut measures 0.389" OD.
3%3A8%2B%26%2BM10x1.00%2Btube%2Bnuts%2C%2BOD.JPG


SAE bubble flare seated into the M10x1.25 tube nut. Not too bad a fit.
FCvB2MeJY-hfXnGkhbyIwQzfiaqFt1NZ-dE-E6zoQE4=w1338-h970-no


DIN bubble flare seated into the M10x1.25 tube nut. This is what the end should look like new OEM.
DIN%2Bbubble%2B%26%2BM10x1.25%2Btube%2Bnut.JPG


DIN bubble flare installed and M10x1.25 tube nut torqued to about 12 ft/lb. This is what the bubble flare looks like post install. The flare tube seat used was a OEM FIAT brake master cylinder.
DIN%2Bbubble%2C%2Bpost%2Binstall.JPG


SAE bubble flare installed and M10x1.25 tube nut torqued to about 12 ft/lb. The flare seating surface is quote similar between these two. Primary difference is at the transition between the tube and flared end and how the edges of the bubble flare compresses into the flare seat.
SAE%3AGirling%2Bbubble%2Bpost%2Binstall.JPG


Post install OD of the DIN bubble flare measures 0.282".
DIN%2Bbubble%2Bpost%2Binstall%2C%2B0.283%22.JPG


Post install OD of the SAE bubble flare measures 0.268".
SAE%3AGirling%2Bbubble%2Bpost%2Binstall%2C%2B0.268%22.JPG


What they look like post install side by side.
DIN%2B%26%2BSAE%2Bbubble%2Bpost%2Binstall%2Bside%2BX%2Bside.JPG


As for real world experience, have used both with good results. No leaks, seepage or problems. This is extremely important as brake system pressures can reach 2,000 psi. If there is a seal failure or blow out of a fitting, the results can be deadly.

All tube flare examples were made in copper-nickle alloy brake tubing. DO NOT USE HARDWARE STORE COPPER TUBING... IT WILL FAIL.

Use only DOT-TUV or similar approved brake tubing as there are very specific industry specifications for brake tubing that MUST be adhered to. Exceptions are if FAA approved annealed 304 seamless stainless steel 0.028" tubing is used or Industrial annealed 316 seamless stainless steel 0.028" tubing is use. These are more difficult to flare, bend and work with, but will meet the required pressures and corrosion resistant at significantly greater cost then copper-nickle brake tubing.


Bernice

Now, back to the last chapter of 5 speed transaxle assembly sooner than later.
 
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Holy Wah! that is one comprehensive show and tell.

Thank you Bernice, amazing and thank you for making each of those parts and then going through all of the conditions. Thorough and extremely interesting.

Note to self, buy a Facom die set.

(Holy Wah is a northern Michigan exclamation used to express excitement, surprise, awe, and more. Much like the use of "dude", "Holy Wah" can express many different things, depending upon context and tone of voice.
"Holy Wah! I haven't seen you in forever."
"Holy wah, I can't believe you ate 6 pasties!"(a meat pie carried into the mines)
 
Hey Karl............!

......I can't believe you ate 6 pasties!"(a meat pie carried into the mines)......

........it musta been one (only 1 needed) of those pasties (pies) that I ate on my way through Grand Rapids - many years ago!! :fart:

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
Seat of Opitmism.......I mean Optimum

Bernice.
Thanks for continuing and following up to the original
conversation. I suspect many, including myself, could and
will benefit by viewing each of these picture standards.
Nice images to view in lieu of the absolute line drawings.


Thanks for sharing ! As we all know, this particular aspect of the auto is of paramount importance to safety and service life of components.


Reference: Attachment 30, and 31. "DIN..installed..", and "SAE...installed...". Same shaped nut seat for compressing of two diferent shaped tubing end forms.

I struggled with this one. I suspect you used this combination for picture purposes ONLY and probably did not have an SAE shaped nut readily available ? Afterall, As EricH alluded to...... WHO WOULD READILY CHOOSE SWAGING TO SAE OVER THAT OF DIN IN TODAYS WORLD


Is it commonplace to use either nuts interchangeably ?


Attached is a pic of the nut shown on the left that should have been
used for picture purposes in lieu of what was used (I suspect).


The above was written to allow for accuracy of process. Not intended to diminish the awesome posting you have just done here. Perhaps you have a moment freetime to clarify this point ? You DID mention next task of transmission chronicling...



out for now,
lezesig '72 850Sp
 
Source for Falcom flaring tools?

Thank you Bernice for your detailed information and pictures on flares and flaring tools.

I bought a cheap flaring kit a ways back to do some work later this winter, so I just went to the shop to try it out. Oops, a waste of money, the flares are uneven and the wrong shape. It is good to know this now, not through leaky fittings or failures.

I checked out Eastwood's tool, currently on sale for $200. The reviews rate it highly, stating that it does a good job, but some individuals commented that the Chinese manufacturing was roughly finished. Their video shows that the dies are cast, not machined. This does not inspire confidence in me.

On the web I cannot find a North American source for the Falcom 347. Ultimate Garage lists a die set, but not the kit.

Anyone have an idea of where to get this?

Paul Davock
 
Last edited:
If the original brake system is being re-plumbed with the original system components, every fitting involved must match what was used with few exceptions. If the bubble flare nuts that were used in the brake system plumbing originally had a un-threaded area near the flare seat, the replacement nut must have the same identical features. Fortunately, much of this has some industry standardization. Example being the OEM Fiat tube nut and the aftermarket replacement sourced from a EU supplier. They are identical where they matter.

The tube nuts in that picture appear to be of a stock Fiat OEM tube nut and the same replacement purchased in the EU.

Measure the ID of the tube nut and OD of the inside chamfer relative to the OEM tube nut, If they are similar, using the replacement should be good. Make sure the threads are identical.



Bernice




Bernice.
Thanks for continuing and following up to the original
conversation. I suspect many, including myself, could and
will benefit by viewing each of these picture standards.
Nice images to view in lieu of the absolute line drawings.


Thanks for sharing ! As we all know, this particular aspect of the auto is of paramount importance to safety and service life of components.


Reference: Attachment 30, and 31. "DIN..installed..", and "SAE...installed...". Same shaped nut seat for compressing of two diferent shaped tubing end forms.

I struggled with this one. I suspect you used this combination for picture purposes ONLY and probably did not have an SAE shaped nut readily available ? Afterall, As EricH alluded to...... WHO WOULD READILY CHOOSE SWAGING TO SAE OVER THAT OF DIN IN TODAYS WORLD


Is it commonplace to use either nuts interchangeably ?


Attached is a pic of the nut shown on the left that should have been
used for picture purposes in lieu of what was used (I suspect).


The above was written to allow for accuracy of process. Not intended to diminish the awesome posting you have just done here. Perhaps you have a moment freetime to clarify this point ? You DID mention next task of transmission chronicling...



out for now,
lezesig '72 850Sp
 
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