gene cooley
Autocrosser
Drive it and recheck.
Edit/add: Even though you know you are not bottomed out on the shocks at normal ride height it never hurts to find out how close you are to bottoming out the shock.
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Spring rates
- Thread starter carl
- Start date
Drive it and recheck.
Edit/add: Even though you know you are not bottomed out on the shocks at normal ride height it never hurts to find out how close you are to bottoming out the shock.
carl
True Classic
I'm bottoming out all four coil overs, according to my zip tie indicators. Sitting static I have one to two inches of travel so clearly any analysis of whether my spring rates are correct is totally out the window till I get enough travel. It's a shame since the look of the car was just right but clearly the car is ridding too low ( the height of the car as measured from the bottom of the sill pinch welds to the ground was about 5.25", I'd like to know how a stock X sits). 205/60/13 tires instead of 185/60/13 tires isn't helping. I guess the goal is to set the right height so I'm not bottoming an then seeing how the car looks. This is an interesting journey for me, more problem solving. More later.
BEEK
True Classic
sorry for not reading all the posts in the thread. If i am rehashing things im sorry. if you are bottoming out on all 4, then i would increase spring rate on all 4 or change the dampening effect of the struts if it is adjustable. I am assuming that it is not adjustable. look at were you are at and go up 25 lbs in the front and 50 in the rear. i dont know how hard you are hitting your bump stops, it it is real hard i might go up 50 in the front and 75 in the rear. just my .02 worth your mileage may very.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
I believe this is the issue with the struts in this case. I know the dampening on these struts is very poor (based on mine). Heavier springs will prevent bottoming, but the ride will be even worse - especially with them already being under dampened (stiffer springs will require even greater dampening, so the ride problem will be worsened). The current spring rates really shouldn't be too stiff for street use on a stripped down X if the dampening was correct. Unless we can get some input from the seller, I don't see a solution to the dampening issue; I've researched the inserts that come in these struts but was not able to find any replacements.
MikeHynes
True Classic
Carl, you need struts with shorter shafts, and shorter housings.
You can gain a little bit of travel by modifying the strut mounts, but I doubt you'll get enough travel that way.
You can modify the body of the car by raising the top strut mount for the rear struts by about an inch. But you can not raise the top mount for the fronts. You can raise the strut to upright pickup point on the strut housing an inch or so in the front, but you can't do that in the rear.
I don't know anyone who will modify struts for you other than Koni. Truechoice can modify Konis, and they know what to do with X1/9 struts to lower the car. But...that's expensive. If you're looking for an off the shelf solution I would think your best option would be MWB. I think they can help you get the right struts, but...It would not be cheap.
Be careful with bottoming out your current struts, it's really easy to damage them that way.
BTW - if you think you want to modify some strut housings, you need the early ones that are rebuildable. If you don't have any, let me know. I might "know a guy".
You can gain a little bit of travel by modifying the strut mounts, but I doubt you'll get enough travel that way.
You can modify the body of the car by raising the top strut mount for the rear struts by about an inch. But you can not raise the top mount for the fronts. You can raise the strut to upright pickup point on the strut housing an inch or so in the front, but you can't do that in the rear.
I don't know anyone who will modify struts for you other than Koni. Truechoice can modify Konis, and they know what to do with X1/9 struts to lower the car. But...that's expensive. If you're looking for an off the shelf solution I would think your best option would be MWB. I think they can help you get the right struts, but...It would not be cheap.
Be careful with bottoming out your current struts, it's really easy to damage them that way.
BTW - if you think you want to modify some strut housings, you need the early ones that are rebuildable. If you don't have any, let me know. I might "know a guy".
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carl
True Classic
My projects are definitely budget conscious so that has to be taken into consideration.
Ulix has the same approach I am taking, basically get the car high enough that I'm not bottoming out (the rubber snubbers must be pretty good because I had no clue I was doing this). Then make a determination as to whether the springs are a good rate and then see how the car looks, whether it's sitting too high for the look of my car....yes aesthetics play an important part of the build but I would never sacrifice dynamic function of the car to get it.
Ulix has the same approach I am taking, basically get the car high enough that I'm not bottoming out (the rubber snubbers must be pretty good because I had no clue I was doing this). Then make a determination as to whether the springs are a good rate and then see how the car looks, whether it's sitting too high for the look of my car....yes aesthetics play an important part of the build but I would never sacrifice dynamic function of the car to get it.
phillips82
True Classic
The guys advising you to raise the car to see what you think of the spring rates are spot on. If you should like them but wish to return to prior height, disassemble the struts and remove the springs, bump stop, and boot. Compress them all the way and compare the exposed shaft to the bump stop and boot top. Then you can trim/remove them to gain compression. Remember to be sure you are NOT fully compressing them while assembled and installed. Give yourself a safe 3/8" extra compression.
carl
True Classic
Right now I'm just playing with enough height to get the proper ride...not riding on the bump stop like I had been. I have the boot off (the top of the boot cuts off an inch of travel) and I like the yellow bump stop that comes with the struts as it seem very progressive (hey I was riding on them thinking they were the springs!). It will all get sorted out with trial and error testing.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Agreed. I did this on mine and it helped a little, as did significantly raising the ride height. However there is more to be gained with improved dampening.
To help illustrate how the dampening rate will affect this bottoming issue, I can relate two experiences I've had (there have been many others, but these are more to the point). Keep in mind that at least 90% of the countless custom vehicles I've built were for street/road use, and only a couple of true track/race ones. So I am not an expert in setting up a race suspension. These experiences pertain to normal street driving, and that will differ greatly depending on your local road conditions, driving style, vehicle weight, and many other variables.
Example 1: I like a low ride height, primarily for the 'look'. When I lowered my X1/9 on the coilovers discussed here there was still a couple inches of travel available (with some of the bump stop removed, as discussed above). But they still bottomed out despite the stiff springs (mine have the same springs as Carls, 165/225 ). I swapped to my coilover modified Konis, with even softer springs (150 front, 175 rear) but MUCH firmer dampening. The Konis are built from their regular street struts and are not shortened, having the same travel as the first coilovers. With the sofer springs, but much firmer dampening, and set at the same low ride height, they did not bottom out and the ride was great. However keep in mind there are other differences between the two sets of coilovers, so I cannot say that all of the result was due only to the dampening rate. But I believe it is the primary reason for this particular issue (bottoming out, poor ride).
Example 2: My "shop truck" is a customized late model Ford F150. When it was fresh off the showroom I began modifying it. One of the first things I wanted to address was the really high ride height and poor ride. The suspension comes with very soft springs and dampeners (especially for a truck) but a lot of travel to compensate for loads. At the time there was very little aftermarket support for the (then new) design of front suspension, with a coilover type of struts. So the best I could get was shortened stiffer springs to fit onto the stock struts. The dampening on the stock struts was very soft, so despite the much stiffer springs they bottomed out a lot and the ride was terrible. A couple years later I found a company that started making replacement front struts for this model. They have great dampening (significantly higher than the stock struts) and allow for spring height adjustment, but uses stock type springs (not the universal coils like many coilovers). These struts are the stock length, and can raise the stock ride height as well as lower it. So I installed the stock (soft) springs with these improved dampeners, set to the lowest ride height - which was actually much lower than with the prior short stiff springs. They do not bottom out and the ride is terrific. The primary design of the two sets of struts is the same, with the internal dampeners being the principal difference.
Although this is not intended to be a scientific finding or professional explanation for the result, it does illustrate how dampening will affect not only ride quality but things like suspension bottoming. In both cases increased dampening combined with softer springs (and lower ride height) prevented bottoming out compared to similar setups with less dampening but stiffer springs, and it also improved the handling and ride. Furthermore the difference will become even greater as the soft dampeners wear out (as mine have), reducing their effect significantly.
I am not saying that removing the bump stops won't help, it did a little with mine. But I believe there is another issue that needs to be addressed with these coilovers in order to make them work well. Even at a much higher ride height setting (to prevent bottoming) I found the ride quality to be lacking; the springs are too stiff for the available dampening rate. Considering the same coilovers are available with other (improved) dampeners, is it possible to buy the better inserts to replace the standard ones in the Hydrosports? Thanks.
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carl
True Classic
OK, so it's starting to fall in the ball park. Those of you who have rejetted carbs know the feeling as each next jet makes the motor run better.
I raised the car up about an inch or more (Ed says his car has 6.75 inch from the sill to the ground an I'm now at 6.25). A ride down one of my local country roads indicates almost bottomed on one front strut and about half inch left on the other three. Car does not look like it sits too high and the ride is much better. This is another classic example of buying a part that is adjustable and having the car owner get the adjustment screwed up. At least when I used to over lower a Fiat with cutting springs I now don't have to go find another set of springs to start all over again. I think I'm going to put this thread to rest. Thanks for all the input from you folks.
I raised the car up about an inch or more (Ed says his car has 6.75 inch from the sill to the ground an I'm now at 6.25). A ride down one of my local country roads indicates almost bottomed on one front strut and about half inch left on the other three. Car does not look like it sits too high and the ride is much better. This is another classic example of buying a part that is adjustable and having the car owner get the adjustment screwed up. At least when I used to over lower a Fiat with cutting springs I now don't have to go find another set of springs to start all over again. I think I'm going to put this thread to rest. Thanks for all the input from you folks.