Spring rates

Rob1400T

Daily Driver
Hi everyone. I posted a few months ago regarding my coilovers. Now that I've managed to sort out the travel and ride height I think the spring rates need sorting. I'm running AVOs which come as a set with spring rates 150lbs front and 200lb rear. Matt @ Midwest said they run 175 front and 300 rear on the VTEC conversions. I run 8" rear wheels and 7" front on a 45 profile tyre. Whilst the roads near me are not the best, the rates seem way too soft. What does everyone recommend? Thanks
 

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Rob:
I have a pair of Hyperco 275# springs which I used on the track for about one hour. They look perfect. They are 8 inch free length and 2.5" ID.
You can have them for $100 plus shipping.
 
Nice looking car. 150/200 is barely stiffer than the stock ones. Your tolerance to a rough ride, your interest in getting a better roadholding into curves in opposition to confort, are all infos required to make your choice. Do you plan some track days? Do you have a sway bar, both sway bars? What makes are your shocks? If you got a stiff suspension with some stock shocks, it will not work well.
 
In addition to Dan's questions, you mentioned spring rates for a Honda swapped X. Is your's a K20 swap or stock drivetrain? That will make a difference, as will any other mods and/or weight changes to a stock car.
 
I run 8" rear wheels and 7" front on a 45 profile tyre.
@Rob1400T - from your photo it doesn't look like you've put fender flares on. Are you using 13" wheels? [EDIT: I see from your previous coilover post that you're running some 15" wheels.
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Can you share the tire size and if you had to roll the fenders to get the 8" wheels in the rear to work out? Looks rad.

@Dr.Jeff - Both based on Rob's handle and this previous post he's running a 1.4L Uno Turbo that he finished in 2011.
 
15 inch wheels, 1400 turbo engine at 255hp, avo adjustable coilovers, front and rear sway bars. Runs the Uno turbo top change gear box (larger than an x19 box). 215s rear, 185s front. Nothing rolled yet.

I won't be tracking this car but it will spend a lot of time in Wales where the roads are as incredible as the scenery.
 
I'm a little masochist, so I'm leaning toward something slightly stiffer, but I know I'm on the extreme side. Also, I'm autocrossing , so I tend to like my street handling like the one on a solo course. I agree on the front sway bar.
 
Fitted 180lb front and 300lb rear springs today. Completely transformed the car. Smooth, doesn't bounce and firm in the bends. Thanks for the advice!
 
175/300 with a front swaybar
180lb front and 300lb rear
I'm curious, how would the spring rates differ if no sway bars were used? For example would the rears be softer than 300 lb?
I ask because I've used 175 fronts like you guys, but more around 225-250 rear. I arrived at these rates based on the stock springs, with similar increases added to both ends. And it gives a good ride (street use only) without obvious handling issues - that I can tell. But I'm not a suspension expert so not sure how it would feel with stiffer rear springs. However I do not run any sway bars, so how will that change the rates?
 
I'm curious, how would the spring rates differ if no sway bars were used? For example would the rears be softer than 300 lb?
I ask because I've used 175 fronts like you guys, but more around 225-250 rear. I arrived at these rates based on the stock springs, with similar increases added to both ends. And it gives a good ride (street use only) without obvious handling issues - that I can tell. But I'm not a suspension expert so not sure how it would feel with stiffer rear springs. However I do not run any sway bars, so how will that change the rates?

Think of a sway bar as a spring that is only activated in the corners.

You could run higher spring rates and NO sway bar. I think that's the setup that Steve H was using. But that was a race car, not a street car, where ride quality took a back seat to performance. So a sway bar gives you the ability to run a softer spring rate at that end of the car, and give yourself some comfort, while at the same time adding some "spring rate" in a cornering situation.

At least, that's my caveman understanding of it.
 
Think of a sway bar as a spring that is only activated in the corners.

You could run higher spring rates and NO sway bar. I think that's the setup that Steve H was using. But that was a race car, not a street car, where ride quality took a back seat to performance. So a sway bar gives you the ability to run a softer spring rate at that end of the car, and give yourself some comfort, while at the same time adding some "spring rate" in a cornering situation.

At least, that's my caveman understanding of it.
Thanks Pete, makes sense.
"So a sway bar gives you the ability to run a softer spring rate at that end of the car." Based on this, and looking at the rates Steve mentioned using with a front bar only; the 175 fronts are softer than would be without a bar. And if you were not building it for the track (street use only), then the spring rates overall would be softer. Therefore the fronts would be less than 175 WITH a bar, or about 175 without a bar. And the rears, where he does not run a bar, would be less than 300 for the street. If my assumptions are correct, then the rates I mentioned (175 front and 225-250 rear, without any bars) should be about right. Sound close to correct?
 
For what it's worth, I'm running a 7/8" Addco front bar with the stock springs. I found that it significantly reduced body roll and oversteer. I decided to pass on a rear bar as I'm OK with the current roll stiffness and did not need any more oversteer that I couldn't dial in with tire pressure adjustment. Since I'm only doing street driving, some on pretty crappy roads, I wanted to avoid stiffer springs.
 
Pete is essentially correct.

The swaybar is a torsion bar that has each end anchored to either side of the axle's sprung component. Therefore the spring is only active when one wheel moves relative to the other. Most people only think of a swaybar as acting when the the car rolls but it also is active any time one wheel moves independently of the other.

Most people assume that you get a softer ride by using a softer front spring and adding a swaybar, which is partly true. You get a lower "ride frequency", which assumes both wheels of an axle operation in unison. As an example; of you hit a speed bump perpendicular to the direction of travel the front wheel hit the bump together and the swaybar does nothing. If you hit it at a 45 degree angle, each wheel must react/move independently and the bar's spring rate is added to the actual spring and the effective wheel rate is the combination of the two rates.

The swaybar is a tuning aid in that, as a general rule, it permits the ride frequency to be tuned separately from the roll ratio. So you can get both good ride quality and good handling balance.


The X1/9 likes a roll ratio of about 1.5 to 1.7 to 1. That is the front roll stiffness is 1.5 to 1.7 times the rear. This reduces the car's oversteer tendency from the rear weight bias. Roll stiffness on an axle is the combination of the wheel rate of the spring and the wheel rate of the swaybar. If you choose to remove the swaybar you must add back that effective wheel rate to the spring rate if you want to maintain the handling balance.

I have found that, on most independent suspension designs, the car's grip and responsiveness is improved if the desired roll stiffness is provided exclusively by springs, and no bar is utilized.

I did use a front swaybar on my street X1/9s to provide for a more comfortable ride quality. I should note that my racecars, setup without swaybars utilizing very stiff front springs, are assumed to have very harsh ride qualities. Most people who have driven my cars, or have cars that I setup, have found the ride was much better than they expected. This is due to eliminating the 'crosstalk' of the swaybar. That is; with a swaybar, when one wheel hits a bump, that impact is transmitted across the axle to the other tire. Without the bar the wheels can truly move independently.
 
I'm curious, how would the spring rates differ if no sway bars were used? For example would the rears be softer than 300 lb?
I ask because I've used 175 fronts like you guys, but more around 225-250 rear. I arrived at these rates based on the stock springs, with similar increases added to both ends. And it gives a good ride (street use only) without obvious handling issues - that I can tell. But I'm not a suspension expert so not sure how it would feel with stiffer rear springs. However I do not run any sway bars, so how will that change the rates?

Given my above example, to eliminate the front swaybar and maintain handling balance the front springs would need to be at least 450 bls/in to be 1.5 times the rear rate (300). There is a slight different in motion ratio but that's mostly irrelevant for this discussion.
 
Given my above example, to eliminate the front swaybar and maintain handling balance the front springs would need to be at least 450 bls/in to be 1.5 times the rear rate (300). There is a slight different in motion ratio but that's mostly irrelevant for this discussion.
Thanks Steve, I see what you are saying. But I think we may have misunderstood each other with the question. I wasn't asking what the EQUIVALENT rates would be without a sway bar. I was asking about front/rear rates for a soft "comfort" street ride; 450 and 300 lb springs are NOT soft and comfortable in my opinion. So if you were looking at rates roughly 20-30% stiffer than stock, would you still want the front to be stiffer than the rear - to try and achieve more of a 1.5 ratio - without sway bars?
 
Well now we go down the rabbit hole of ride quality and ride frequency.

Note that the stock X1/9 rates have the front softer than the rear. The reason is to maintain ride frequency. Ride frequency is the function of the sprung weight on an axle compared to the spring rate. A typical street car will have a ride frequency in the 1 to 1.5 Hz range. the higher the number the stiffer the ride. The ride frequency is the number of cycles the body could complete over 1 second. 1 cycle per second is typical of a normal street car, 1.5 for a more sporting ride.

Because of the rear weight bias, the X has to have a softer front spring rate to keep the ride frequency within range of the heavier rear axle. In the case of my racecars, with front spring rates much higher than the rear, the front ride frequency is much higher than the rear. My MR2 has a front ride frequency of 4 Hz and a rear of just under 3 Hz. For street use the ride quality is poor because the front cycles very quickly compared to the rear. So it feels like the rear it pitching all over the place over bumps. You would have a similar effect with 450/300 (F/R) rates on a street car. Or even 150/100 rates. The mismatch in frequencies screws up what we call 'favored speed'. That is the speed at which both ends of the car cycle together over a single bump.

Without going down the 'favored speed' rabbit hole. just know that the front ride frequency needs to be lower than the rear to give the car a consistent and stable ride quality. To achieve this the front spring rates must be significantly lower than the rear. The problem with that is now the car has a distinct rear roll stiffness bias (roll ratio is reversed). Instead of 1.5:1 we have 1:1.5 (est). So the car has a pronounced oversteer bias. This is corrected by the addition of the front swaybar which adds its wheel rate in roll to counter act the bias in spring rates.
 
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Well now we go down the rabbit hole of ride quality and ride frequency.

Note that the stock X1/9 rates have the front softer than the rear. The reason is to maintain ride frequency. Ride frequency is the function of the sprung weight on an axle compared to the spring rate. A typical street car will have a ride frequency in the 1 to 1.5 Hz range. the higher the number the stiffer the ride. The ride frequency is the number of cycles the body could complete over 1 second. 1 cycle per second is typical of a normal street car, 1.5 for a more sporting ride.

Because of the rear weight bias, the X has to have a softer front spring rate to keep the ride frequency within range of the heavier rear axle. In the case of my racecars, with front spring rates much higher than the rear, the front ride frequency is much higher than the rear. My MR2 has a front ride frequency of 4 Hz and a rear of just under 3 Hz. For street use the ride quality is poor because the front cycles very quickly compared to the rear. So it feels like the rear it pitching all over the place over bumps. You would have a similar effect with 450/300 (F/R) rates on a street car. Or even 150/100 rates. The mismatch in frequencies screws up what we call 'favored speed'. That is the speed at which both ends of the car cycle together over a single bump.

Without going down the 'favored speed' rabbit hole. just know that the front ride frequency needs to be lower than the rear to give the car a consistent and stable ride quality. To achieve this the front spring rates must be significantly lower than the rear. The problem with that is now the car has a distinct rear roll stiffness bias (roll ratio is inversed). Instead of 1.5:1 we have 1:1.5 (est). So the car has a pronounced oversteer bias. This is corrected by the addition of the front swaybar which adds its wheel rate in roll to counter act the bias in spring rates.
Excellent explanation, thanks again. Now I understand why the stock rates are softer in the front compared to "track" X's with the rears softer. That sort of bothered me before, nit understanding the dynamics involved. So as with all things, there must be trade offs. In this case we are giving up ideal handling for a more comfortable ride feel, in terms of what you said trading ride frequency for roll ratio. And that was my the root of my question, what must be given up in order to maintain a "comfort" ride.

With that in mind, and going down that rabbit hole for a second, would you maybe want the rear rates to be a little closer to the fronts as something of a compromise IF you could not utilize any sway bars? (I won't bog this down with the reason why sway bars cannot be used in this example). I don't want to sidetrack that question, but for example what happens when you use the same rates on both ends?
 
I don't want to sidetrack that question, but for example what happens when you use the same rates on both ends?

<deeper into the rabbit hole...>

If we are looking purely at ride quality and ignore handling balance, ride frequency and favored speed are the only variable.

To understand "favored speed" consider our X1/9 approaching a speed bump. The characteristic of an ideal ride would be to pick the speed at which we are traveling and then, when the car hits the speed bump, the two ends of the car complete their cycles at the same time. The speed at which both ends complete their cycles at the same time is the 'favored speed'. Given that the front hits the bump first for it to finish at the same time as the rear (that is; to complete its up/down motion in response to the bump) it must have a significantly slower cycle time than the rear, given that the rear hits the bump well after the front.

With consideration of the above, the closer the two frequencies are the higher the speed at which the cycles synchronize their finish. The further apart the frequencies are the slower the speed at which the cycles synchronize their finish. We can set a favored speed by picking the speed at which we want the best ride quality and the computing the cycle times so that they synchronize their finish (for the given wheelbase).

So to directly address the question quoted; using the same rates at both ends would produce a negative favored speed. This is because the heavier rear end of the X1/9 would have a lower ride frequency than the front given both ends using the same spring rate. That is; the favored speed could only be achieved in reverse.

The frequency differential is what determines the favored speed. Typically, the rear frequency (base) is chosen first and the front computed to match. Using this method you can choose the base (rear) frequency to produce the ride comfort you want. If you want a luxury ride, you would choose a lower frequency at 1 Hz or less, then match the front to that. If you wanted a more sporting/firmer ride quality you might choose a higher base (rear) frequency of say 1.5 Hz, and again match the front to that. It is the higher ride frequency and higher favored speed of performance cars, and especially European sedans, that give the sensation that the car rides better at higher speeds. I first noticed this when driving a '70s era Mercedes sedan as a teenager. I noticed the car seemed to have a much better ride and feel at 70~80+ mph than it did at 55~60 mph. I would add that 8~9 degrees of steering caster also contributed to that effect.
 
I wanted to make a separate post to address the no swaybar ride issues of my racecars. My DSP X1/9 weighed about 1930 lbs, on grid, ready to run. Weight bias was in the 44/56 F/R range. The front springs were 750 lbs/in and the rears 500ish lbs/in. When I first tried the car with no swaybars I was in the 550/400 range. Before I understood the issues of favored speed and another characteristic called "center of suspension" (the point between the two axles where an applied vertical load compresses both ends of the car equally), I didn't understand why the rear end of the car was pitching up and down excessively.

That motion was caused by a moment arm that is the difference between the center of gravity and the center of suspension. Much like the moment arm that is the difference between the car's roll center and center of gravity, that causes the body to roll in a turn, the center of suspension moment arm levers that end of the car up and down. Effectively, the center of gravity of the rear weight bias car is closer to the rear axle than the front. The center of suspension (see above description) is closer to the front axle due to the stiffer front springs. So when the car passes over a bump, regardless of the ride frequencies the center of gravity acts at the end of the fairly long lever (moment arm) and pitches the rear end up and down in response to the motion. The rear mass literally over powers the rear springs and shocks.

Once I learned the cause, and understood the principles involved, I could adapt. I learned to adjust the rear shock valving to manage the mass and motion. This is key in making the no swaybar work effectively. Another key factor I learned with the MR2. I stared the MR2 off with very similar ride frequencies and roll ratios to the X1/9 because the X1/9 was so good. As I continued to develop the car, work with the newer generations of tires and increased levels of grip, I kept going higher on spring rates and ride frequencies. Now the MR2, which weights 300 lbs less than the X1/9 is on 800/500 F/R spring rates. The ride frequencies are much higher than the X's. In fact, my ride frequencies are in the same range as the IMSA Prototype class racecars. Yet with highly developed shock valving the car rides quite nicely. When I let other people drive the car, and tell them what the ride frequencies are, they expect a punishing ride. However, the comments I usually get after their first drives on course are "I never noticed the ride quality". The do notice the car's responsiveness and feedback.

Below are a couple of photos that, at first look may not seem that impressive, but once you understand what is happening the perspective changes:

First is a photo of my DSP X1/9. I am trail braking the car into a corner. One of the comments I get from skeptics is "That car is too stiff to work". In other words, the car can't move on its suspension and therefore can't generate weight transfer. Look closely at the amount of body roll and compression on the outside front corner. Its important to note that at static ride height this car was very close to sitting on what would have been the stock bump stops. The suspension system I had on the car added a great deal of compression travel. So note that the right front suspension is compressed well past where the stock car would have bottomed out yet still hasn't bottomed. And, most importantly, those are 750 lbs/in front springs. Now consider the amount of weight transfer to compress that spring that far. :)

TP-MidAtlantic.JPG


Now look at this photo and note how little body roll the car has. It has no swaybars. The tires are Hoosier radials racing tires. The car is pulling about 1.5 lateral g in this photo. If you doubt the lateral g number, look at the tire deflection at the contact patch.
shoelscher-3.jpg
 
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