Stand-alone ECU

Dr.Jeff

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
I can across a relatively new product and hope others can provide input about it:

It's a aftermarket stand-alone ECU that seems to have all of the features of the high-end units but at a much better price-point. Honestly I have not done the homework on the ECU market yet so this is an open question to help get me started. In time I will review options, including the MegaSquirt (with the excellent MS threads here on Xweb) as well as others, and numerous online materials. But I know there are many of you that have already done the research and have extensive experience on the subject, so I'd like to hear what you have to say about this particular product...as well as any others that also offer a good value for the money.

The ECU I'm referring to is from this company: http://www.ecumaster.com/
They offer a few choices but it's my understanding even the entry level model (the "EMU Classic" at around $800) has everything needed for an application like the X1/9.

Thanks for the product feedback and any education you can offer on this subject.
 
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I know nothing about this type of thing. I did skim thru the specs and saw "Fiat 500" listed under "Supported OEM CAN streams". I wonder if that is useful for TonyK or perhaps it only handles the "easy" stuff Fiat requires.
 
JimD said:
"Fiat 500" listed under "Supported OEM CAN streams"
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As I understand, this allows their stand-alone ECU to connect to the stock Fiat500 harness and replace the stock ECU. Therefore the listing for the 500 includes an adapter harness to make the install easy (no individual wiring needed to each sensor, etc). So their new stand-alone ECU unit can be used instead, but will need to be programmed for your specific requirements (they have initial maps to download and get things started). This could be a good option for Tony. Contact the office in Texas, he is the US distributor and I had a long conversation with him at the SEMA Show...great guy and good to work with.
 
JimD said:
I know nothing about this type of thing. I did skim thru the specs and saw "Fiat 500" listed under "Supported OEM CAN streams". I wonder if that is useful for TonyK or perhaps it only handles the "easy" stuff Fiat requires.
Click to expand...

Here is what it supports.

Supported systems VVTi, MiVec, VANOS, Double Vanos


These are all electro mechanical systems that change valve timing by advancing or retarding the camshaft's position in relation to the piston position.

Multi air is a hydraulic computer controlled valve timing. It would be nice if this ecu would work. I could get rid of a lot of wires and other stuff that only serve the purpose to report back to the BCM and ECU CAN bus.

Thanks for the comments.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
As I understand, this allows their stand-alone ECU to connect to the stock Fiat500 harness and replace the stock ECU. Therefore the listing for the 500 includes an adapter harness to make the install easy (no individual wiring needed to each sensor, etc). So their new stand-alone ECU unit can be used instead, but will need to be programmed for your specific requirements (they have initial maps to download and get things started). This could be a good option for Tony. Contact the office in Texas, he is the US distributor and I had a long conversation with him at the SEMA Show...great guy and good to work with.
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HMMMM.

Tuning a forced induction engine is a bit different than an normally aspirated engine. The chances of burning up an engine is pretty good. A day's worth of dyno time will not be enough.

That being said possibly some of the tuners like Shiv at Open Flash may have files that could be adapted and written into the ECU. This will be complex challenge for the novice like myself.

It may be the beginning of something great, but if the ECU is $2000 which is plausible then the tuning cost, sticking with the stock ECU and aftermarket tuning or modules that feed modified signals to the stock ECU may still be way to go. If the Immobilizer could be defeated on the ECU that would open the door for a lot of engine swaps. But now we cross a threshold by shutting of the immobilizer any car could be stolen and that is a violation that FCA will come knocking on your door. I may own the car, but they own the software on the ECU.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada
 
Software is the most important aspect, since you will have to tune all your ign / fuel parameters to your specific setup. Without a user support base to refer to for testimonials & real life experience from others with similar setups actually tuning with the product (and possibly a base file), I wouldn't touch it. For a simple old school motor like the X1/9, a basic MS would be more than sufficient.

Don't forget you may need to buy a spare laptop with a specific version Windows in order to run the software also....
 
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lookforjoe said:
Software is the most important aspect, since you will have to tune all your ign / fuel parameters to your specific setup. Without a user support base to refer to for testimonials & real life experience from others with similar setups actually tuning with the product (and possibly a base file), I wouldn't touch it. For a simple old school motor like the X1/9, a basic MS would be more than sufficient.

Don't forget you may need to buy a spare laptop with a specific version Windows in order to run the software also....
Click to expand...

Speaking to hardware and Operating System requirements, pretty much all of the original tuning stuff used to require that your laptop had a specific version of Windows 2000 or XP and a 9-pin serial port because that was more or less the defacto standard when they were first hitting the market. I have to think that a current offering would work with USB and Win 7/8/10.
 
Not sure I'm following you Tony. But I understand the "ECU Master" system I referred to is available for the 500 turbo version. And it is compatible with all modern operating systems with a USB connection. It also has blue-tooth connection. But the best thing would be to contact the company directly as I mentioned previously, I really have not looked into it for your application.

My interest in this product is for a possible future project to add a turbo system to the X's 1.5 engine. This standalone ECU includes a MAP processor, self-learning wideband AFR processor, turbo boost control processor, fuel and spark control, and more in the same package for $800. Although I've only begun looking at the MegaSquirt offerings, it looks like the "MicroSquirt" seems to be the appropriate option at $350. However my understanding is it does not include the processors for AFR, MAP, boost control, etc. So by the time all of the extra items are added the total comes out pretty close to the $800 price of "ECU Master's" unit (with everything on-board in one water-proof housing). The ECU Master can also be triggered from the Fiat distributor's Hall-effect signal, eliminating the need to custom fabricate a crank mounted trigger wheel and sensor. Then the distributor can also be used to distribute the spark (vs separate COP) for a more "factory" appearance. Granted this approach is not the ideal method for optimum performance, but my goal is to build a street system like the factory would have done rather than an all-out race engine. However I still have a lot to learn on the subject so I welcome any input...including MegaSquirt experience.
 
Simon, I read the linked page. Can you offer a little info how to use this in relation to designing a EFI system with a stand-alone ECU? Thanks.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
My interest in this product is for a possible future project to add a turbo system to the X's 1.5 engine. I welcome any input...including MegaSquirt experience.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a lot of options for a good price.

My experience is with an AEM EMS4. I think a critical factor is the availability of technical support and someone nearby for hands on support. I did not realize that most of the tuning tables in my control system were interactive, with tables sitting on top of other tables to reach the final operating instructions. For example I counted 19 different tables that can be included in setting the idle.

The bottom line is that I needed expert help to get my tune. Part of that is likely me, many people are more intuitive about tuning needs than I am, but knowing how to get the system to do you want it to is the trick. There is a lot to know here.

I found out after installation that the EMS4 is has O2 feedback control only at idle. Other AEM systems do.

I am very happy with the outcome, it runs very well, is tractable, and is quick, although lately there is something out of whack with the decay rates on deceleration and dropping back into idle. Back to logging, checking tables, and if necessary, getting support to find it. Frustrating but fun.

Paul Davock
 
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Thanks Paul. That is exactly my concern, I'm not well versed in tuning a standalone ECU. There is a authorized representative shop in So Cal that I visited. They have a dyno and the fee is $700 to get an initial program installed and tuned, barring any real problems (which is where it can get expensive). The company that imports this ECU offers a training course to teach you how to do things, the cost is $600 for two days. My hope would be to assemble everything (correctly) myself and let them tune it. I still need to get back in touch with the company to get some questions answered, like what initial maps are available to get things started with a project like this application. But from what I understand so far the product seems to be well received. It is intended to keep things fairly simplified (they offer higher end units that get very sophisticated), and includes the majority of the controls commonly used for turbo installations in one box...at a very reasonable price (part of their marketing).

I also spoke with AEM. The ESM4 is what they recommended to me as well (funny, they talked about the O2 feedback but did not mention it is only at idle). I must say by the time everything is assembled their goods are quite pricey, but seem to be great quality. They also have an adapter to use the ignition distributor's hall-effect signal to control the ECU. So that might be a viable option to creating a trigger wheel set-up...not sure.

I'd be interested in reading a review of what you have built. Thanks.
 
Still, for something this basic (no VVT, etc.,) it is still easier to go with a already established system, IMO. That's why I used LH2.4 with a Moates Ostrich2 emulator. LH2.4 has already been decoded, and tuning maps for fuel and ignition (EZK116) are available from a range of sources for use in TunerPro (very low learning curve). Starting with maps already designed for the setup you intend, NA or Turbo) is much easier than tuning from scratch. You just match MAF/injectors. Dyno tuning would be an option not a requirement :D

I wouldn't use the hall effect signal for crank position, no way it's going to be as reliable, especially for turbo application where timing events are obviously more critical than NA.
 
Hey Jeff,
A good friend of mine who owns a business that specializes in ECUs is working on a swap for the X1/9. If you are interested in testing, let me know and ill put you in touch with him.

Ed
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Not sure I'm following you Tony. But I understand the "ECU Master" system I referred to is available for the 500 turbo version. And it is compatible with all modern operating systems with a USB connection. It also has blue-tooth connection. But the best thing would be to contact the company directly as I mentioned previously, I really have not looked into it for your application.

My interest in this product is for a possible future project to add a turbo system to the X's 1.5 engine. This standalone ECU includes a MAP processor, self-learning wideband AFR processor, turbo boost control processor, fuel and spark control, and more in the same package for $800. Although I've only begun looking at the MegaSquirt offerings, it looks like the "MicroSquirt" seems to be the appropriate option at $350. However my understanding is it does not include the processors for AFR, MAP, boost control, etc. So by the time all of the extra items are added the total comes out pretty close to the $800 price of "ECU Master's" unit (with everything on-board in one water-proof housing). The ECU Master can also be triggered from the Fiat distributor's Hall-effect signal, eliminating the need to custom fabricate a crank mounted trigger wheel and sensor. Then the distributor can also be used to distribute the spark (vs separate COP) for a more "factory" appearance. Granted this approach is not the ideal method for optimum performance, but my goal is to build a street system like the factory would have done rather than an all-out race engine. However I still have a lot to learn on the subject so I welcome any input...including MegaSquirt experience.
Click to expand...


I emailed them to see what they have to offer in a stand alone engine swap application.

I have done megasquirt on a rotary engine and it is complicated. I cannot imagine adding another variable such as valve timing to the mix and not blowing up an engine. If there is a stock proven tune this may be plausible. I will wait and see what their reply is.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
lookforjoe said:
I wouldn't use the hall effect signal for crank position, no way it's going to be as reliable, especially for turbo application where timing events are obviously more critical than NA.
Click to expand...

In my build, I used a Baumer hall sensor. I when talked to the Manufacture's rep, he told me that I needed a high level of sensitivity to effectively read the 12 point trigger wheel at 7000 RPM. (I have a cam sensor as well). It was quite expensive, and my system reads no errors.

Paul
 
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TonyK said:
I emailed them to see what they have to offer in a stand alone engine swap application.

I have done megasquirt on a rotary engine and it is complicated. I cannot imagine adding another variable such as valve timing to the mix and not blowing up an engine. If there is a stock proven tune this may be plausible. I will wait and see what their reply is.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Click to expand...


The manufacture got back to me and I will post his email.
I am unsure if it will allow the PDF file to be posted or not, but I will try.

Please note that the prices are in Euros and the pictures in the PDF file are from a Euro Car. Also note this system is plug and play for complete car, not just to an running engine.
In the PDF file outputs for variable valve solenoids are missing, which leaves me to think this is for the early Fiat 500 Euro car, not the Multi Air engine. At a total cost of $1331 USD and it requires the whole car's modules to work I cannot see the advantage of this ECU system in a engine swap. It makes no sense. The intent is to delete modules not add more of them. Also the English in the PDF file appears to be written by an Chinese Author due to the spelling and phrasing of the sentences.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada


Hello Anthony,
We've got plug n plan solution for Fiat500Abart (not euro6)

Interconnector:
http://efishop.pl/galerie/f/fiat-500abarth-emu-plug_201.jpg
Ecu: Ecumaster EMU_Classic:
http://efishop.pl/galerie/z/zdjecia-na-forum_307.jpg

you need also:
Can_bus_module:
http://efishop.pl/galerie/m/modul-can-bus_268.jpg

and
Bosch LSu 4,2:
http://efishop.pl/galerie/s/szerokopasmowa-sonda-lam_34.jpg

Cost ?

Emu_Classic - 750Euro
Interconnector: 200Euro
Can_Bus_module - 109Euro
Bosch LSU 4,2 - 89Euro
 

Attachments

  • manualabarth500.pdf
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PaulD said:
In my build, I used a Baumer hall sensor. I when talked to the Manufacture's rep, he told me that I needed a high level of sensitivity to effectively read the 12 point trigger wheel at 7000 RPM. (I have a cam sensor as well). It was quite expensive, and my system reads no errors.

Paul
Click to expand...

A distributor mounted Hall sensor? The reasoning behind not using that is mechanical lash and wear impacting the accuracy of the signal. Obviously it's working for you.
 
lookforjoe said:
I used LH2.4 with a Moates Ostrich2 emulator.
Click to expand...
Huss, I'd like to learn more about what you used. I vaguely recall you did a write-up on it here a long time ago? Thanks.

PaulD said:
In my build, I used a Baumer hall sensor.
Click to expand...
Paul, please tell me more about this. You mention a 12 point trigger wheel, is it a crank mounted wheel/trigger? And you also have a cam sensor. Is there a review of your entire system I could look at? Thanks.


Ed, I'm sending you a message through your profile page. Thanks.

TonyK, I was forgetting you are only using the 500 engine as a swap. That would be a different picture. The company is based in Poland (hence the language issues) but they have a full-support facility (direct importer and US distributor) in Texas. You might be better off communicating with the Texas location (very knowledgeable guy).
 
lookforjoe said:
A distributor mounted Hall sensor? The reasoning behind not using that is mechanical lash and wear impacting the accuracy of the signal. Obviously it's working for you.
Click to expand...

Dr.Jeff said:
Huss, I'd like to learn more about what you used. I vaguely recall you did a write-up on it here a long time ago? Thanks

Paul, please tell me more about this. You mention a 12 point trigger wheel, is it a crank mounted wheel/trigger? And you also have a cam sensor. Is there a review of your entire system I could look at? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I has a 12 point trigger wheel on the crank pulley an a one point trigger on the cam pulley, both with hall effect sensors. Hall sensors need some width on the trigger and I can't see it fitting in a distributor. Perhaps there is a technology that I do not know about.

After your ask, I am starting a write up of my build, with pictures. It will take a week or so to get it together.

Paul[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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