Stand-alone ECU

I'll just leave this here

Fiat Made a Cam sensor that fits into the factory Dizzy hole.

It's from a Punto GT

It's by far and away the cleanest and easiest way to get a Cam signal.
 

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Saab Trionic 5 (Built for Saab by Bosch and very good turbo engine management system.. can be adapted to other vehicles with open source code), Bosch LH jetronic uses a hall effect sensor on the crank pulley. The hall sensor lives inside a cast aluminum housing then shielded with the aperture disc by the crank pulley. Earlier versions of Saab C900 APC with Bosch electronic distributor also uses a hall sensor inside the Bosch distributor.

Miata NA-NB uses a hall effect sensor inside their cam position sensor. They fail often (poor hall device design and oil intrusion into the cam angle sensor also due to design) and causes weird ignition problems in Miatas.

Hall sensors are not a bad choice for mechanical position sensors.

Today, most hall effect sensors have been replaces by tooth cogs and essentially a magnet with a coil. Similar in theory of operation to the EI Bosch distributor used in the later exxe.


Bernice


lookforjoe said:
Are you sure about that? Bosch for example doesn't use Hall Effect, and I don't think most OEM systems do either. Can't recall the name of the (inductive?) style used with most Motoronic, etc.. Unless I'm misreading, I thought hall effect described the old style wound core units as used for igintion systems up through the early 80's for the most part.
Click to expand...
 
The above mentions of software brings up another difficult point; finding some sort of base map to get the system going. A Fiat SOHC 1500 with a turbo is not a popular choice and most ECU makers don't even know what it is. Yes there are the later UT's and Punto GT's with turbo engines, but they are different enough that I don't think a base map for them will work? Perhaps someone knows of something available?

As for the features I was referring to; things like knock control, boost control, wide band O2 control, etc. Basically things that will help make it as "driveable", reliable, and "hands-free" as possible for a normal 'street car' (something like a modern factory system would do). Some offer one or two of the features built-in but most seem to require numerous additional systems to added. That completely gets away from the goal of having a 'tidy' package, if you get my point.

Maxmod, I like the Punto GT cam sensor idea. Especially when the stock dizzy is being replaced by a separate coil per cylinder (dizzy-less) system. Not only will it provide the cam position info, but it secures the oil pump drive and covers the hole. Please verify the part number, I'm reading off your photo as 0 232 102 004 ?? Thanks.
 
Slight topic detour,

To get an idea of what is needed to make a reliable turbo engine management system look over the Saab Trionic 5 system. There is a lot more in what Saab did for engine management than what is commonly done. Saab gave up on external knock sensors in the early 90's and went to an ionization based at the spark plug sensing system. This also provides a mis-fire sensing system. Engine sensing systems like this work per cylinder , per otto cycle in conjunction with engine maps, gear box maps and more.
http://www.rossonex.com/SAAB/Trionic_5.pdf

These features can be found on modern turbo engine-power train management systems. It is also why modern turbo engines have become reliable, durable and can be tuned to absurd amounts of power.


Bernice
 
Simon Oaten said:
jeff,

search punto turbo phase sensor

also well worthwhile reading throu the megasquirt manuals, and then asking yourself "what do I want the puter to control" .......and then carefully chk what box will work with "available senors", and then go throu the important things like logging / sample rates / update rates / resolution etc etc .....

concur with Mezz - take the time to download softwares - and see ease of use, and chk the "data analysis" software at same time! - some are clunky, some are easier to use.
Click to expand...


Especially of note in the software: how does it show you what is influencing its decisions? What I mean specifically is when you're tuning, you want to know what the sensors are telling the ECU to do. If you're working in the main fuel or spark tables and the O2 starts showing really rich, it would be nice to see that the coolant temp sensor suddenly thinks you're at -30 degrees and that's why it's turned up your injectors to max. You'd be amazed how hard it is to find this info in some software.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Huss, I'd like to learn more about what you used. I vaguely recall you did a write-up on it here a long time ago? Thanks.
Click to expand...

\Missed this previously. My system mods are linked in my sig (LH2.2 & LH2.4)

I would still think MS is the easier softer way for what you want. LH2.4 would work, you would have to completely revise the timing mapping, since I blew headgaskets repetitively just using the turbo (reduced timing) mapping on my NA - you'd probably melt pistons immediately is used as is.
 
Regarding the tuning. I'd like to learn enough to be able to assemble the system (correctly), load a base map, and get it to run well enough to allow someone else to tune it from there. Ideally this will eliminate any major design problems or other time consuming functions for the tuner. But frankly I'm not that interested in learning how to tune it myself. Just too many other things to do in life. That's why I hope to get a system that is as "hands-off" as possible. By that I mean it won't require constant tuning, tweaking, correcting, etc. after it is set up. The thought is, by including some of the safe guards mentioned for the ECU (knock, O2, auto tune, etc), that is a realistic goal.

As I mentioned before, I'm trying to keep the budget fairly low...the car just isn't valued anything near what this will cost already and I've done enough project builds in my life to know it isn't worth spending a ton of money on vehicles with no real value.

lookforjoe said:
I would still think MS is the easier softer way for what you want.
Click to expand...
I am leaning more in that direction. Mainly due to the wider range of established applications, hoping to find some existing info on how to correctly design the system and get a reasonable base map to start with. The down side is it seems to require the most knowledge to build a system with MS (compared to the others) and as noted above I am trying to keep it fairly straight forward in that regard. As much as I admire the systems developed by the major auto manufacturers (Volvo, Saab, etc), trying to convert one of those systems isn't a good plan for me.

I greatly appreciate any/all input here, you guys are helping me a lot, thanks....please continue to offer your thoughts.
 
In that case the system you opt for has to be in keeping with whom is available to tune and what programs they are versed in your area - so I'd say that would be the first step in your decision.
 
Which might be another reason to go with MS; seems its popular enough and uses "generic" software that tuners might be familiar with.
 
Maxmod said:
Fiat Made a Cam sensor that fits into the factory Dizzy hole.

It's from a Punto GT

It's by far and away the cleanest and easiest way to get a Cam signal.
Click to expand...
Maxmod, after searching I have not found any of these available anywhere. Do you happen to know of a possible source? Thanks.
 
They aren’t easy to source unless your in the UK I contact Gtturbo from here to get them for me. Generally he has to get me second hand ones but I’ve had a couple of new ones.
 
Found one
Dr.Jeff said:
Maxmod, I like the Punto GT cam sensor idea. Especially when the stock dizzy is being replaced by a separate coil per cylinder (dizzy-less) system. Not only will it provide the cam position info, but it secures the oil pump drive and covers the hole. Please verify the part number, I'm reading off your photo as 0 232 102 004 ?? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Found one here but not cheap!

Dom.
 
Thank you Dom and Lidox19. I sent a message to the ebay seller to see if he has it available separately. I'll wait to hear what he says before pursuing the Alfa shop listing (that one is expensive). This would make for a nice way to add a cam sensor.
 
300 pounds is really expensive I’d get in touch with GTturbo and see what he can find for you if the one on that block falls through. I’ve paid anywhere from 70pounds -165 pounds for the new one. The second hand ones the price varies a fair bit based on what the seller wants and what sort of condition its in. I’ve had some that were nice and clean and others that were corroded.
 
Maxmod, thanks that helps me to understand the value. I'm surprised you are able to get new ones...especially at that price. Is "GTturbo" in the UK or your way? With buying used ones, are they pretty robust (worth buying used) or should I wait for a new one?

Lidox19, thanks. He listed it after my request. His message said he has sold a few of them. Funny, they don't seem to exist anywhere else, but these UK guys have them. I've asked him about shipping to the US.

Thanks again guys.
 
His in the UK, another member and I here have several of them and between us the only one we have had fail so far is actually one of the new ones. Does that mean all new ones will fail very unlikely I think it just means it's like any sort of sensor it's pot luck.
 
Regarding MegaSquirt and cam position sensors:
Unless I'm missing something, all of the MS ECU's except the top of the line MS3 ($700) only offer batch injector firing and wasted spark ignition, and do not have provision for a cam position input? Nor do they offer knock control, etc. I saw a reference to a sequential option that was being planned for MS2 but do not find at listed anywhere, so it apparently never made it to production. At $700, plus additional items required to complete the basic system, the other ECU I listed at the beginning of this thread (ECU Master) seems a much nicer option. That does not take software factors into consideration, and I agree with what you guys are saying about that. I am only commenting on the seemingly (lack of) relative value of the MS products, for what is supposed to be a more cost-effective offering. I'm not bashing MS, just not clear I'm seeing things straight?
 
I know I might be in the minority here but I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't compromise the quality of your ECU it's install or the components and sensors it's controlling. The cost of getting a proper ECU like a Motec or Autronic or any of the other top brands really is invaluable. When it comes to things like idle control, cam positioning, knock control, lambda the ability to just turn the key and have it fire and just sit there purring away is all your ECU. The tune is super important but so are the components and their ability to control things.

We had an Autronic ECU installed on a factory injection system it isn't running complex cam control it's had the Dizzy modified and I wouldn't do this if I was after ultimate performance. ECU Supplied, wired and tuned with a handful of sensors supplied drive away was $5500AUD. Our labour rates here are through the roof we are paying $110 an hour for mechanics to do work so I'd imagine over there your quotes would be considerably less than that. It's well worth the money though so just have the car sitting there idling away like it's a modern car. Fuel economy is drastically improved it's smother throughout the rev range. There's no hesitation it's just a perfect system working in harmony for what we designed it for not outright power this one just good driveability. This is a fairly simple system it isn't even running lambda or any Oxygen sensor it was all done when it was tuned and now it's just a set and forget situation. Is it perfect no but we didn't want it to be on the ragged edge like my other cars so it isn't an issue.

We look at it like this the engine and it's components cost a fair bit to build and get right so a good ECU to control it and keep it alive is well worth the money.
 
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