Stand-alone ECU

Generally the cam sensor is only for timing the injection system to ensure that the injectors fire when the valve will be opening/open. The Punto GT sensor is very interesting as a means of getting to timing the injection system I must say.

The crank position sensor is most important for timing the ignition event. Measuring the exact position of the pistons is critical to the spark event, the variation that exists between the crank and the drive of the cam wouldn’t be the best way to time the spark event.

There are options for MS to be able to do batch fired or sequential injection and either wasted spark or individual spark events. It really depends on what you want to create.

When I get to changing the system on my X, my intent is batch fire and wasted spark so just the crank position sensor (CPS) will suffice.

I am not looking for a bleeding edge solution but of course. There are nice add ons for doing knock sensing to adjust ignition timing which I find rather tempting.

If I don’t go that far then Microsquirt likely would suffice to run a mildly tuned X engine. Not as much capability but still does more than the separate existing Bosch systems.
 
kmead said:
When I get to changing the system on my X, my intent is batch fire and wasted spark so just the crank position sensor (CPS) will suffice.
Click to expand...

That's what I have with LH2.4/EZK116 wasted spark mod - it's all good now I have the timing mapped properly :D

I don't understand using a sensor off the oil pump drive to register cam timing, seems rather obtuse. Curious to know how they use that signal to interpret cam positioning, since it's not on the cam....
 
lookforjoe said:
That's what I have with LH2.4/EZK116 wasted spark mod - it's all good now I have the timing mapped properly :D

I don't understand using a sensor off the oil pump drive to register cam timing, seems rather obtuse. Curious to know how they use that signal to interpret cam positioning, since it's not on the cam....
Click to expand...


It’s relational, as it revolves at half crankshaft speed it is at the same rotation as the cam, however it still has the drive slop. If its good enough for driving the ignition it is good enough for the injectors which are much less precise in their timing.

One would have thought they would have used something from the end of the cam, similar to the existing cam driven distributor. Likely a packaging problem I would bet.
 
I've been learning more about the MegaSquirt (MS) options. I'm looking at the "built" versions from places like "DIY AutoTune". The majority of their offerings only do batch injection and wasted spark. Because of this they do not even have provision for cam timing input. If you want it to do more than that, it requires quite a bit of customization of the board/circuits and you loose other functionality. Plus external modules are required to add most features (like knock control, wideband O2, etc.). MicroSquirt does not support the type of injectors used on our cars and is even more limited otherwise. Things change when you move up to their higher end units (the latest MS3 and the Pro), which are priced about the same as much more sophisticated offerings from other companies. Frankly for the most part MS seems a bit dated to me and not a real 'bargain' (which is what I though they were know for).

However there might be one exception, depending on your goals. The MS2 might be a worthwhile compromise for a 'no-frills' budget build. Its very basic; batch injection, wasted spark, and extra modules are needed to get a complete package...but the price point is decent even with those additions. And since it does not utilize a cam sensor that makes the system build easier. But the real benefit would be if there is an existing tune file (from the forum database) that you could use for your particular application, just to get things going. In my case that would mean for the 1500 X engine with a turbo added. Otherwise if I had to have a base file created from scratch and tuned from there, then I'd go with another company and get everything in one bundle.

But I am still learning, so this might change again. Starting with a carb version of the old Fiat engine design and converting it to FI and turbocharged is a big task.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
In my case that would mean for the 1500 X engine with a turbo added. Otherwise if I had to have a base file created from scratch and tuned from there, then I'd go with another company and get everything in one bundle.
.
Click to expand...

You've found a stand alone setup that includes a file for the Fiat (or engine displacement + turbo sizing) ? My understanding is that no matter what you start with, you're on your own with the tune. Some, like VEMS, will start & run with basic component spec data input, and then you fine tune. I think you're in the same boat no matter what setup you start with, no?
 
MS also has a strong forum network and many have offered their maps. MS also has a great related software program that can auto tune the system to respond to what your system actually is doing. It’s an extra cost but it is apparently well worth it from what I have read.
 
lookforjoe said:
You've found a stand alone setup that includes a file for the Fiat
Click to expand...
kmead said:
MS also has a strong forum network and many have offered their maps.
Click to expand...
Huss, perhaps my comment was not well stated. I was saying a possible benefit to using a MS product would be IF such a base map file existed from someone else. As Karl says, there are a lot of shared files available for MS ECU's. That is the nature of its design, a open source format that everyone shares. If you find a file that has already been developed and is close to your parameters, then you can load it and build your specific tune from there. However if such a file does not exist in the MS database and you have to generate one from scratch, then I see little benefit in MS products. And I would go with another brand where I can get more features and better technology for roughly the same money. The effort/cost to build a tune file would be the same for either one in that case, so might as well put it into a better product.

kmead said:
MS also has a great related software program that can auto tune the system
Click to expand...
Every other product I've looked at offers this and much more (included in the base product). I'm finding that most MS stuff seems outdated. The market has other options with newer technology for about the same money. There are a lot of variables involved so it is not really fair to make such a comment. But from what I've learned so far (which may not be enough to be correct), this seems to be the case for my application. It would be different for others that want to build their own ECU from components, or enjoy learning all the detailed nuances of how to program/tune it from scratch, or otherwise find some benefit in MS products for their particular application.

One thing I am beginning to consider is scaling back the scope of my project (again). Initially I had planned to utilize all of the factory Uno Turbo management that goes with the UT turbo, manifolds, etc that I will be using. It would be simple and easy to do. However as I learned more about it I realized the stock management was not well suited to my build; I am installing the UT gear onto a 1500 X engine, not doing a complete UT engine swap, and there are some fundamental differences between them. Once I decided to go with a aftermarket standalone ECU, and learned of their capabilities, I began to add more and more features to my 'wants' list. But that got a little out of hand, making the project go beyond my intent and budget. So now I am looking at a more basic management system that suits my initial goals. This is why I am still considering the MS2 ECU. Although it is not very advanced and has many limitations, it might be good enough for this project and falls within my other limitations.
 
Many "turbobrickers" use MS for +T setups on old 8 valve Volvos with great success. I would think it will be pretty straightforward There are others on here using MS. A base file from an NA would still give you a good starting point, just have to pull a bunch of timing, and work on the positive pressure fueling obviously. Many of those do already have crank triggers though, and those that don't, it's easy to install parts from a newer Volvo that did. You can chose MAP or MAF setup, either of which will be mucher better than the useless air flap crap used by Fiat :D I assume you going to add an IAC & get rid of the Aux Air slide?
 
For a base map file, I'd be hesitant to use one for a NA set-up on a turbo install, especially one that is using a turbo and fuel injection system from a different engine. But it depends on what I can find.

One of the reasons for using a aftermarket ECU rather than the original UT ECU is to eliminate the air-flow meter (flapper). Partly because its undesirable and partly because its very difficult to find a good AFM from a UT (especially here in the US).
I happen to have a idle control valve left from a old VW project. Its pulse-width-modulated and works much better than the early style AUX Air valve. But all such deviations from a standard X1/9 injection system are easy considering I don't have a X1/9 injection system. This is starting with a '79 carb engine and using the UT's basic injection components (along with its turbo).
 
lookforjoe said:
Still, for something this basic (no VVT, etc.,) it is still easier to go with a already established system, IMO. That's why I used LH2.4 with a Moates Ostrich2 emulator. LH2.4 has already been decoded, and tuning maps for fuel and ignition (EZK116) are available from a range of sources for use in TunerPro (very low learning curve). Starting with maps already designed for the setup you intend, NA or Turbo) is much easier than tuning from scratch. You just match MAF/injectors. Dyno tuning would be an option not a requirement :D

I wouldn't use the hall effect signal for crank position, no way it's going to be as reliable, especially for turbo application where timing events are obviously more critical than NA.
Click to expand...

Moates Ostrich2 emulator is a "thing" with which You can tune LH2.4. in real time?

Installed VemsTune on my PC to see what it actually is. Everything actually looks simple enough.
 
Jeff, have You chosen direction?
For a week am trying to snap new Volvo ads with LH2.4., when I call them (few minutes after add is posted) - management system is already sold.. Are they available on Your side?
 
I haven't looked for them. For my project I prefer to use a aftermarket standalone unit, rather than alter a factory one to work. So unfortunately I don't know anything about the LH2.4, sorry.
 
mkmini said:
Jeff, have You chosen direction?
For a week am trying to snap new Volvo ads with LH2.4., when I call them (few minutes after add is posted) - management system is already sold.. Are they available on Your side?
Click to expand...

Look through the beginning of this thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=227153

That website has links to the files you will need to tune

There are a range of part numbers that will work, since you will be tuning it it doens't matter whether its turbo or not (ECU). Look up the part numbers on eBay US. Let me know if you find ones that would work for you, but the seller won't ship overseas, as is often the case.

You want LH 2.4 and (chippable) EZK 116
 
Have read also the users "frpe82" threads on turbobrick.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=84817
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=75838


I understood that have to look at part nr, no matter does it or not have turbo - and same knows locals, that's why it's hard to find here I assume.

Did a search on ebay, I see that there are mostly for sale separate parts. My understanding is that I need whole management system with sensors and wiring, I can't find those parts on ebay. Don't know does search there works same for me as for You in US.

I'll try to make more calls today to local miserable scrapyards, maybe they will have some 7xx or 9xx series..

Thanks
 
mkmini said:
Have read also the users "frpe82" threads on turbobrick.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=84817
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=75838


I understood that have to look at part nr, no matter does it or not have turbo - and same knows locals, that's why it's hard to find here I assume.

Did a search on ebay, I see that there are mostly for sale separate parts. My understanding is that I need whole management system with sensors and wiring, I can't find those parts on ebay. Don't know does search there works same for me as for You in US.

I'll try to make more calls today to local miserable scrapyards, maybe they will have some 7xx or 9xx series..

Thanks
Click to expand...

OK - forgot about this post (links not active).

You can contact blabla aboout the the daughterboard kit if your EZK box is not chippable:

"Exceptions:

If your EZK is gold/silver/bronze colored, it is always chippable and you do not have to open it up to check for a chip socket. Those EZK boxes have the following numbers, and they look like this:

0 227 400 207 (found in 940 '95-'96 automatic)
0 227 400 219 (found in 940 '95-'96 manual, EGR)
0 227 400 208 (found in late models 960 16v turbo)
0 227 400 147 (more rare, but found in late models 740 16v)
0 227 400 209 (more rare, but found in late 240, EGR)

There are a few other odd gold ones that were "test" EZK boxes that starts with the number 0 227 400 1xx. If you encounter one of those, please tell me and I will add them to the list.

Q: I am having a hard time finding a chippable EZK. What do I do?

A: You can buy a kit from Martijn (username: blabla) to make your black EZK chippable.
biggrin.gif


The thread where you can buy the kit is found here:
EZ116K Daughterboard GB

The thread on how to assemble the kit is found here:
EZ116K daughterboard assembly and installation guide"
 
Sorry, I honestly don't mean to sound like a dick, but this is why I did not pursue the use of stock parts from other cars for a custom turbo management set up. Not saying it isn't good, nor that it won't work, but I've been down this road many times and it's just too much hassle for me. Although getting an aftermarket system to work also has hassles. So I guess it is personal preference. Curious how the total cost compares between the Volvo system parts and a aftermarket system?
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Sorry, I honestly don't mean to sound like a dick, but this is why I did not pursue the use of stock parts from other cars for a custom turbo management set up. Not saying it isn't good, nor that it won't work, but I've been down this road many times and it's just too much hassle for me. Although getting an aftermarket system to work also has hassles. So I guess it is personal preference. Curious how the total cost compares between the Volvo system parts and a aftermarket system?
Click to expand...

Depends what you need to pay for a donor car. If you can get one for a few hundred (easy enough in the US, considering the millions of 200/700 series sold), then the only additional cost is labor. You have to modify the X1/9 motor either way to accept at least a crank trigger & knock sensor.

Eitehr way, tuning involves using (buying) a laptop, and possibly an Ostrich 2.0 interface if you want to live tune vs. program chips, so could be under 600. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any aftermarket system for that. The added benefit is tuning LH2.4 is a tried and tested route, so plenty of support.
 
This is an aside to share a set of parts which would allow more modern injectors to be used with our standard intake manifold and existing fuel rail approach on an X.

For most modern stand alone injection systems they use injectors which are high impedance versus the low impedance used in the Bosch L Jetronic system Fiat adopted in 1980.

Later Bosch changed the L system to use the other injector style (found on BMW, Volvo and others) which still had a flexible hose supply, barbs etc. Of course the choices are limited in terms of fuel flow and so on as well as they are just plain old.

There is an adapter available which allows a flex hose supply with later mount type injectors:
https://www.efihardware.com/products/2358/14mm-Injector-Oring-To-Hose-Tail-Adapter-Steel

This doesn’t solve for mounting the injector into our manifolds (I haven’t done any research into that) but its at least one part of the solution.

Cross posting this in a few relevant threads to leave a crumb for others to follow in the future...
4D3C7F24-972D-4BA3-B307-A56ACF887157.jpeg 833FE599-6AAA-4BEC-AB65-1B7D4F289EAE.jpeg 7EE021E0-267B-4973-A53F-1271F9F1ADA2.jpeg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top