Starter - replace or repair?

EricH

EricH

Eric Hamilton
Moderator
One of my Xs has developed this annoying intermittent behavior where sometimes it won’t crank even thought the starter relay clicks, voltmeter confirms that I’m getting full voltage at the terminals, ground is good. So I poke/whack the top of the housing a few times with a broomstick and then it cranks and I’m good for the next few starts - clearly something inside is sticking.

Do I take the starter apart, clean/lubricate anything that looks like it might be sticking? Or is my intermittent failure a sign of more serious problems requiring a full rebuild or outright replacement?
 
EricH said:
One of my Xs has developed this annoying intermittent behavior where sometimes it won’t crank even thought the starter relay clicks, voltmeter confirms that I’m getting full voltage at the terminals, ground is good. So I poke/whack the top of the housing a few times with a broomstick and then it cranks and I’m good for the next few starts - clearly something inside is sticking.

Do I take the starter apart, clean/lubricate anything that looks like it might be sticking? Or is my intermittent failure a sign of more serious problems requiring a full rebuild or outright replacement?
Click to expand...
My starter had similar symptoms. I took it out and found the inside to be extremely dirty, and the brushes were about shot. I cleaned it, got new brushes (<$10), and burnished the commutator with some fine sandpaper while spinning it with a drill. After that, it works like a brand new starter The brushes were easy to find on eBay.
 
There is a copper bar in the starter solenoid that connects battery voltage to the starter motor when the solenoid is engaged. That copper bar wears away where it makes contact with the lugs for the connections to the starter motor and the wire from the battery. The good news is that you can flip that bar over, then clean the lugs (they're copper) and you're good to go. The hardest part about the repair is unsoldering the trigger wire for the solenoid (you have to do that to open the solenoid up) then solder it back when you've cleaned everything thing up in there. And that's not hard to do at all. Cost to rebuild the solenoid - free. Or, you could just replace the solenoid with a new one.
But while you're in there you might as well clean things up and take a look at the motor brushes too.
And, adding a solenoid for the starter solenoid, while you're in there, is a good way to help keep your ignition switch in good shape.
After suffering through the no start issues you have been experiencing you'll smile every time you turn the key after you've done the refresh.
 
I put in a reduction gear starter (although, I would imagine the OE one is also a reduction gear starter with a planetary gear). I like it, seems to crank faster - but it does sound like a Honda when it's cranking :)

I put it in 8 years ago, but now I'm also having intermittent click-no crank issues. The blade terminal that I used on the harness lost its grip on the starter motor, and I think that was the root cause of my issue - yes I had good voltage, but a poor connection. The starter solenoid sinks a LOT of current!!

I made a vid of it - kinda boring, sorry was one of the first videos I ever put together :)

I liked the new starter because it's smaller - leaving a lot more room in the engine bay. If I ever put my Uno Turbo motor in, I'll use the UnoT ring gear - so I'll need a different starter/gear.

 
I have one of the large body (same as original, not gear reduction) starters that I bought new & then swapped out for the gear reduction. If you want it, you can have it for whatever shipping costs (it's heavy, but you're not that far away...)
 
I'll support the prior comments that cleaning and servicing the existing starter isn't that difficult to do. Frankly removing and installing the unit is the majority of the work, and that is the same if you replace it or refurbish it. As Mike said, the hardest part of servicing the solenoid is to unsolder and resolder one connection. But I really suck at soldering and managed to do it. And as Don said, you'll likely find a lot of gunk inside the motor itself that can easily be cleaned out. That will reduce the resistance significantly.

I suppose it depends on one's general mechanical skills (not referring to Eric specifically, but for anyone that reads this and is considering the job), and the overall condition of the starter. But if it hasn't completely failed, burned up, fallen apart, etc, then it's very likely a service will provide plenty more life to it. Given the price of replacements vs the cost to service it yourself (pretty much zero), it seems worth a try. There have been a couple of good tutorials for it on the forum.

I can't directly speak for any of the current supply of replacement X1/9 starters. But in general I've found that a lot of the reman or new starters available for many older vehicles these days is not that great. The reduction gear starters are nice, I have one on one of my X's. But they are quite expensive (mine came with the car); much higher than reduction starters for other vehicles, and certainly much more than a standard replacement. So unless your engine specifically requires the extra cranking torque to turn it over (e.g. very high compression), the cost would need to be considered. And speaking of reduction starters, they are actually a stock starter motor from a small Asian import vehicle with a adaptor drive added to give the reduction gearing and to match the engine mounting. Those small motors will give up with frequent use (true for all gear reduction starters).

Another option might be to take the existing starter to a local rebuilder and have them go through it for you (especially for anyone that isn't sure about doing such a job themselves). However finding rebuilding services has become difficult in many areas. And even if you have one available, the quality of their work should be verified before trusting them with a uncommon motor for a uncommon car.
 
I also installed the gear reduction starter from MWB around 6 months ago. I'm sure that any job fixing the old one would cost maby a half of it (although parts are cheap i would use a mechanic for this one, lack of specific knowledge), but i liked the design and features so decided to go for it (plus i visited the US then so no expensive shipping and customs).
It cranks in a second and sounds cool,
very...metallic :)
 
81x said:
I also installed the gear reduction starter from MWB around 6 months ago. I'm sure that any job fixing the old one would cost maby a half of it (although parts are cheap i would use a mechanic for this one, lack of specific knowledge), but i liked the design and features so decided to go for it (plus i visited the US then so no expensive shipping and customs).
It cranks in a second and sounds cool,
very...metallic :)
Click to expand...
Would you recommend a gear reduction to replace what may be an original starter? The local auto shop has $145 hour fees for ‘Euro’ cars, and are telling me they may have to drop either the transmission or engine to get to the starter. Sound right? Seems extreme.
 
dllubin said:
My starter had similar symptoms. I took it out and found the inside to be extremely dirty, and the brushes were about shot. I cleaned it, got new brushes (<$10), and burnished the commutator with some fine sandpaper while spinning it with a drill. After that, it works like a brand new starter The brushes were easy to find on eBay.
Click to expand...
If you were paying someone to remove and replace a X starter, how much labor would I be looking at, time-wise? Does the engine or transmission need to come out to get to it?
Thanks
 
Find a different shop. You definitely do not have to remove the trans or the engine to get the starter out. It is actually not that difficult. Step 1 is to disconnect the battery or very bad things can happen. If you still have the sheet metal shields under the engine compartment, remove the ones affecting access to the starter. You should be able to get to it from there.

As far as what kind of starter, that is up to you. My original starter just needed a clean up and new brushes. They are pretty bullet proof. A gear reduction starter might save you a few pounds.
 
Neither the trans nor motor has to come out to remove and install the starter. Clearly the shop has no experience with Xs. Get a copy of the shop manual and even if you don't want to do it yourself you can show it to the repair place. I would guess one of us who knows what we are doing could remove and install in a half hour to an hour. Certainly no more. A mechanic who has never done it before may charge for two hours but I'd be leery of a shop that needs that much time.

Reminds me of the appliance repair guy who replaced the drain pump on our dishwasher. I commented that he didn't to pull out the dishwasher to replace the pump. He said "if you know what you are doing you can do it with the washer in place".
 
carl said:
I would guess one of us who knows what we are doing could remove and install in a half hour to an hour.
Click to expand...
At first I thought that sounded slightly optimistic for how slow I work. It takes me longer than that just to get my tools out. Then I re-read your comment and realized this part: "one of us who knows what we are doing". So that explains my need for more time. :confused:
 
Thanks for the install info. I think they saw there were no stains on my pants and figured it was gravy-train day. After all the things I’ve read here on how relatively simple it is to work with this car, their statement had me befuddled. One old guy added he worked on 124’s for years, and the X was the same :/
 
I work a bit slower than Carl; It took me 1 hr 45 min to replace the original starter with a gear reduction starter. These are my notes from when I did this job on my '85 in 2016:

Started 21:45
  1. Disconnect battery negative cable.
  2. Work from below:
  3. Remove fuel pump shield. 2 visible screws, 10 mm hex head
  4. Remove main shield, three visible screws, 10 mm hex head. One nut against cross member, 10 mm hex.
  5. Undo three bolts holding starter to transmission. Bottom two visible, feel for top bolt 25 mm below larger boss with slotted side. Bolts are M8 x 56 with 25 mm threaded. 8.8 grade.
  6. Squeeze old starter down past coolant hoses to access cables.
  7. Undo cables and remove starter, don’t drop on your head.
  8. Gear reduction starter has easy access to connections from below, so mount starter before connecting wires.
  9. Push starter up past coolant hoses and mate with transmission. Insert bottom bolt and get it started.
  10. Start middle bolt and snug this up along with the bottom bolt.
  11. Insert top bolt and finger tighten.
  12. Torque bolts to 24.4 Nm (pr. FSM).
  13. Reconnect wires (two fat ones to lug, small one to spade).
  14. Reinstall shields.
  15. Reconnect battery.
Tools put away 23:30
 
I have mixed opinions on them. They are lighter weight, a bit more compact size, and they crank the engine faster (which is good for a high performance, high compression engine). On the other hand they are quite costly and the general design (speaking for all vehicles, not just the X) hasn't always been the most reliable. They are made using a small starter motor from a tiny import engine, then an adaptor with a reduction gear is added to fit the specific application. However those little import motors are not extremely robust and seem to burn out more than a traditional full size starter motor. Again, I'm speaking in general terms and not necessarily specific to the ones sold for the X. So it might depend on your specific needs and your budget.
 
Ok, good info. Reliability is job-one for this particular part, as my wife will be driving the car a lot, so I’d prefer she not be stranded. When searching for starters, is it important to match the 1300 engine size to the starter, or does that not matter so much?
 
I would definitely get the gear reduction starter sold for the X1/9. I had it on mine. Volvo has used gear reduction starters since the late 80's - they draw less current, not subject to the heat soak of old school large starters. There is really no downside. I'm not sure which models Jeff is referring to specifically, however the modded one used for the X1/9 works perfectly. Perhaps there are more than one brand showing up on the market - I can't find the pic/name of specific one I had right now
 
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