Sticky situation, stuck second butterfly on the carburetor.

Ok thanks, I will do this ! One last question, do I need absolutly to change the gasket if I'm removing the carb ?
If you don't replace it, you run the risk of it not sealing properly, so for the sake of a couple of dollars why would you waste your time NOT replacing it?

Just because it's a Weber and you're in France won't make it difficult, same pattern of carb is used on a lot of French cars, a Solex 34CIC is the same base footprint as a DATR, and that's found on Citroen CX 2000/2400.

The gasket could even be part the problem, if someone has used a gasket for a 32 with the smaller hole....

SteveC
 
I have removed and reinstalled carbs many times without replacing the gasket. It's a matter of looking at the gasket and making sure it's not torn or worn out. A simple test when everything is back together and the car is idling is to shoot WD40 where the carb meets the phenolic spacer and see if the idle speed changes, indicating a possible vacuum leak.
Thanks, I was careful and it seems in good state !

Again, I agree with Steve that the secondary throttle plate might be hitting and binding on the phenolic spacer below it, I have seen this several times. Very simple to remove the carb, just remove the four nuts/lockwashers holding it down on the manifold. You won't be sure of what the problem is till you remove it.

I followed what you said and the problem was still there even with the carb 5cm up in the air, so I took it off completly.
However, I took a photo of the spacer, maybe you might see something abnormal about it ?

I followed your guys advices and actually it seems to be the butterfly that was not screwed at the right position, I unscrewed it and replaced it a bit and it doesnt stick now.

I'm going to compare how smooth it is with the spare carb I have, but I think I might have solved this problem finally !

However I couldnt untight the accelerator cable, even bathing it in wd40, it doesnt want to unscrew at all... pretty boomed about it. The pedal range is really small, so If I dont make it shorter I cannot open the second butterfly fully...
 

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If you don't replace it, you run the risk of it not sealing properly, so for the sake of a couple of dollars why would you waste your time NOT replacing it?

Just because it's a Weber and you're in France won't make it difficult, same pattern of carb is used on a lot of French cars, a Solex 34CIC is the same base footprint as a DATR, and that's found on Citroen CX 2000/2400.

The gasket could even be part the problem, if someone has used a gasket for a 32 with the smaller hole....

SteveC
Yes you are right and it's cheap too...

However It's really complicated in France, everything is in the UK, and with brexit, even a tiny thing on ebay will take forever to arrive sometimes, website won't accept order less than 150 euros from Europe. Tricky !

i should have spare gaskets with another spacer I bought recently from ebay : Ebay Link however it's for 32 and 34 Carb, so maybe itsn't that good either... I will make sure to test the gasket on the bottom of the carb before using it !
 
Hi Everyone,
So I have been taking the carb apart,
First off I injury myself taking out the butterfly becasue it was really stuck...

I tried to swap with the spare shaft I have, showing a bit of improvement but still sticky.
You told me about the plastic bushing and indeed one was broken. so I took it off !
But actually it didnt solve the stickiness. Even taking off the 2 plastic bushing or putting the spare one (non broken) that I have, same thing, still a bit sticky.

I tried to take some close up photos of the hole. On one of them you can really see some marks left by the butterfly that was misaligned...

Biggest improvement so far was to re-adjust the butterly.
Then swapping shaft with the one working well on the other carb, add 10% less stickiness.
(I tried the bad shaft on the spare carb and itsnt sticky, albeit, not csuper smooth like the other shaft)

So something is happening in the hole of this carb, I'm kind of stuck... change the carb completly ?
The spare carb isn't in good shape, 1st butterfly is waved etc... so cannot just swap carb.

I was so let down to find the broken bushing yet didnt resolve the issue !

Let me know if there would be any solution ;)
 

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However I couldnt untight the accelerator cable, even bathing it in wd40, it doesnt want to unscrew at all... pretty boomed about it. The pedal range is really small, so If I dont make it shorter I cannot open the second butterfly fully...
Looking at your original picture, the play in the cable seems correct - you do not want the cable tight as it will be difficult to maintain the idle setting. If you disconnect the ball joiner at the end of the cable and then put your foot down on the pedal, how much travel are you seeing at the cable?
 
Looking at your original picture, the play in the cable seems correct - you do not want the cable tight as it will be difficult to maintain the idle setting. If you disconnect the ball joiner at the end of the cable and then put your foot down on the pedal, how much travel are you seeing at the cable?
The pedal has a lot of play but the biggest problem is that I'm pretty sure last time I tried (before taking the carb out), when the pedal was pushed to the floor, second butterfly would be 40% open or something...

But you are right I shouldnt make it too tight, but just a bit more... I just did it on my Lancia Gamma Coupe, and it was super easy, but on the X, for some reasons, the nut is stuck !
 
So just to let you know that after getting the carb piece all together, with the new shaft, the stickiness is manageable, the springs in the carb can counter it, so not butter smooth but it's working...

Something we can see on the photos of the bushing inside the hole for the shaft : This carb has been redone in a way where new metal bushing have been inserted into a redrilled hole for the second barrel... Kind of like the one you see on youtube video about how to fix a wobbly shaft. Well it seems it doesnt work very well after a while maybe because on the spare carb I have, there is no sush golden looking bushing and its butter smooth operation of any shaft in it.

I think for now I'm going to keep this carb and maybe upgrade it altogether in the future because it has clearly seen better days !

I'm still stuck with that loose throttle wire though, if anyone has a solution on how to untight crazy tighten nuts ;)
 
Someone has definitely rebushed the secondary shaft, my guess is they haven't reamed through, but have reamed from each side and the holes are misaligned.

Really odd too that the secondary has been rebushed - which doesn't usually see as much wear - and the primary has been left in a very worn state.

If the locking nut is super tight, grasp the ball end with a pair of side cutters or similar tool using the socket / hole in it to grip it firmly... and remember lefty loosey
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If the pedal feels like it has insufficient travel, then the long rod at the other end of the linkage to the carb is also adjustable for length.

SteveC
 
To adjust that socket end I usually grab the fitting with vice grips and turn the nut with an 8mm wrench.
Shortening the rod from the carb to the cam box mounted arm can take up cable slack too. Just went through this with the 34 DAT on my 81 X. The test is to have someone push the throttle pedal to the floor and see if both butterflies are fully open.
 
Ok guys thanks I will use your method, seems way better than trying to grip the 4mm part of the cable !
Someone has definitely rebushed the secondary shaft, my guess is they haven't reamed through, but have reamed from each side and the holes are misaligned.

Really odd too that the secondary has been rebushed - which doesn't usually see as much wear - and the primary has been left in a very worn state.
Yes... What is weird is that trying to find a solution on youtube, as I'm completely novice in mechanic, There were dozen of video showing this process, and actually how they use a special tool to get them perfectly aligned ...

When I see the spare carb I have... with the warped primary butterfly, I struggle to imagine how these cars where used !

Also Everything was over tighten in the carb.

Now I put it back on my X I will try it out but to resume the situation :

Sticky primary and secondary, with secondary completely stuck if you open it fully.

1- Untight a bit primary shaft (now primary shaft move freely)
2- Secondary butterfly was misaligned and ripping against the barrel wall.
3- Secondary shaft was a bit bent. I changed with the spare I have.
4- Original secondary butterfly with spare shaft, well positionned : No more stickiness or stuck.
5- One of the plastic bushing was cracked. I replaced it, but I see no improvement.
6- Still a bit sticky by itself but when everything assembled the spring is strong enough so it works well.
7- Remaining little stickiness is due to the bushings of the secondary barrel that have been redone, but seem mis-aligned.

Going to take it for a drive and give you feedbacks !
 
Hi guys, thanks a lot for all your help,
It's way better now, No stickiness in the full throttle.
Also using your advice for the cable, now the pedal isnt wobbly anymore. Pretty good !

I will recheck the pedal in the near future because when I took it for a test, two times I got the sticky pedal again, but itsnt coming from the carb.
Drove again 30km and couldnt get it to stick again so I guess it was some ghost...

Im still amaze how I took off the carb by myself and dismantled it. Then put it back and the car works perfectly at the first try ! I think it's because this weber is really simple in operation and very easy to work on it !
 
two times I got the sticky pedal again, but itsnt coming from the carb
Remember to keep the joints/pivots lightly oiled to avoid any unnecessary problems going forward - especially the ball and socket ends under the barrel clips.

I'm sure you've already done this, but it would be worth double checking under the rubber boot on the cable to look for any frayed strands - any fraying will mean a complete new cable as the cable will eventually jam in the outer sheath :eek:
 
Remember to keep the joints/pivots lightly oiled to avoid any unnecessary problems going forward - especially the ball and socket ends under the barrel clips.

I'm sure you've already done this, but it would be worth double checking under the rubber boot on the cable to look for any frayed strands - any fraying will mean a complete new cable as the cable will eventually jam in the outer sheath :eek:

Yes definitively I will have a look ! And Maybe also get a spare new pedal just in case... I think that pedal and the cable might have been abused in the past, due to this secondary sticky shaft. The Pedal seems to rip against the side wall as well... I should investigate !
 
Hi guys, It has been a while because I was working away from home.
Actually the carburetor worked fine for 1 or 2 days then suddenly the pedal was stuck again... and even worst than before !
Really disappointed by my fixing... It worked perfectly for like 30-40 km, then the same problem again...

I don't know what to do, because this carb is bad, the spare one I have is bad. Shall I buy a new carb but it's very expensive, also I found some replacement carburetor on this forum but still somewhat expensive but especially I need a custom made adapter to go on.

Is it possible it would be the spacer that after a while move the butterfly off center becasue the space hole is too tight?

Thanks.
 

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Sorry to hear you're still got a problem. I would be surprised if the butterfly is hitting the spacer, you should be able to see the clearance when both are off the car.

Can you post another video of how the carb is sticking now? Try to operate the mechanism slowly as it is easier to see what is happening.

Have you double checked the cable and pedal are able to run freely by themselves? - disconnect it at the end joint at the cam cover and have someone move the pedal while you hold the cable to check.

Have you checked the cable connection at the pedal? There's meant to be a spring to stop the pedal over pulling the cable when your foot is fully down - maybe this has been removed/lost/modified and the whole mechanism is being over stressed and causing damage, just a thought 🤔
 
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Sorry to hear you're still got a problem. I would be surprised if the butterfly is hitting the spacer, you should be able to see the clearance when both are off the car.

Can you post another video of how the carb is sticking now? Try to operate the mechanism slowly as it is easier to see what is happening.

Have you double checked the cable and pedal are able to run freely by themselves? - disconnect it at the end joint at the cam cover and have someone move the pedal while you hold the cable to check.

Have you checked the cable connection at the pedal? There's meant to be a spring to stop the pedal over pulling the cable when your foot is fully down - maybe this has been removed/lost/modified and the whole mechanism is being over stressed and causing damage, just a thought 🤔


Hi and thank you for taking the time to help me.
Yes you are right, it's basically impossible for the butterfly to hit the spacer ;)
yes Im pretty sure now what is the reason of the problem.

So I had a fractured plastic bushing, and a badly positionned butterfly. This I already fixed it in a previous episode.
However, I had a secondary problem in this carb and this is the reason its stuck again after just 20km or so.

Please have a look at the video
VIDEO of the problem...

The accelerator pump diaphragm that doesnt work is on the left.
On the right its the one that does "work" as not blocking my carb, but doesnt work well to pump the gas (I tested my car with it and it doesnt do its job well, cannot accelerate very well etc...)

What is troubling me is that the one on the left is similar to the one from well known websites such as :
https://www.pafclassic.com/en/products/kit-de-refection-weber-34-datr-lancia
or here https://wagendass.com/en/gasket-kit...carburettor-WEBER-34-datr-on-lancia-beta.html
or here https://www.midwest-bayless.com/p-2...tr-datr-dhta-dcnf-dhsa-dfev-dic-dica-new.aspx

Seems the same type with the little white plastic tip.

So obviously If I just buy another kit to replace it won't solve this problem...
I really need you guys help !

pump2.PNG


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The roller on the end of the pump lever arm also looks very worn out, it should'tt have a deep groove like that on the outer diameter, and it shouldn't have any wear on the inside either

Pump diaphragm I have listed as a weber 47407048 and should have these dimensions


32DMTR uses a similar diaphragm, but the inner disc is smaller, so it displaces less volume per pump


SteveC
 
The roller on the end of the pump lever arm also looks very worn out, it should'tt have a deep groove like that on the outer diameter, and it shouldn't have any wear on the inside either

Pump diaphragm I have listed as a weber 47407048 and should have these dimensions


32DMTR uses a similar diaphragm, but the inner disc is smaller, so it displaces less volume per pump


SteveC

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your answer.
It makes sense now ! As when Im using the smaller one I do have a bit of pump but not quite as it should.
The groove its from the little arm from my spare carb. The original one has no groove but it is also buggy.

The Issue is really the little arm that has not enough back mouvement... what could be the issue ?
A solution I had in mind was to grind a bit the metal flat piece so it won't force on the roller, but it would be last resort I guess.
the 34 Diaphragm I have, doesn't seem damage, nothing to block it whatsoever, so Im confused.

Matthieu
 
The Issue is really the little arm that has not enough back mouvement... what could be the issue ?
Do you have the spring behind the diaphragm, part #49 below?
I'm guessing your carb is a 34DATR 7/250 - this lists a 47407.050 diaphragm (part #50) which is actually the smaller disc type and can be more rubber based depending on manufacturer - I've not had a problem with this type on our 1500s, so suspect it's not your main issue.

34-datr-7-250.jpg

I suspect the groove in the roller is caused by lack of lubrication - it's best to keep all the linkage/contact points regularly oiled, it really does make a difference :)
 
On the right its the one that does "work" as not blocking my carb, but doesnt work well to pump the gas (I tested my car with it and it doesnt do its job well, cannot accelerate very well etc...)
That may not mean it's the fault of the diaphragm - it could be something blocked in the carb passages or the pump jet itself:
I think this has a ball bearing type valve inside which could stick or it might just be blocked - it should rattle if you take it off and shake it :D
 
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