Stilo1.8 16v swap

[My1stCar]

Hi all, this week I put the engine back in (again) to check if everything I welded still cleared, especially the O2 sensors, and they did.

Before I took it out again, I tried myself at some stainless welding. Not as easy. But the exhaust I welded is structurally sound and seems to be airtight.

This is how it fits its compartiment with enough clearance all around.

It looks like a giant paperclip. My exhaust exits on the left (driver) side. That part and the hangers are next.

I kept some extra room around the muffler, in case this one is too loud:

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Nice design on the exhaust. I also like to include a flex joint of some sort to prevent cracks, and V-bands to aid removal/install.
S/S is more difficult to weld, and yours do not look too bad to me. Did you use a different gas on your MIG for it? That helps a lot.
Maybe consider a couple heat shields: for the oil filter and above the section that passes under the oil pan?

 

[My1stCar]

Nice design on the exhaust. I also like to include a flex joint of some sort to prevent cracks, and V-bands to aid removal/install.
S/S is more difficult to weld, and yours do not look too bad to me. Did you use a different gas on your MIG for it? That helps a lot.
Maybe consider a couple heat shields: for the oil filter and above the section that passes under the oil pan?

Heat shielding is indeed part of the plan. In the Fiats that had this engine there was none for the passage under the oilpan, but I think the X's engine compartment retains more heat, plus I've got the shifter cables passing there too.

I actually tried fluxcore welding with special stainless fluxcore wire. Stainless wants much more heat before it starts to weld, so the longer welds are nicer, but not as nice as Instagram TIG argon purge welds. But as the guy from Mighty Car Mods says: It's not a milk factory...

 

[My1stCar]

Finalized the exhaust exit and figured out the hangers:

A pair of standard exhaust rubbers is triangulated left and right. That way the whole exhaust doesn't move around a lot, but is still suspended flexibly enough.

The left hanger joins the bend into the secondary catalyst with the exit of the muffler. This to reduce the vibrations that could ultimately make the welds fail due to fatigue.

 

[My1stCar]

Hi all,
Spent some time sorting out the plumbing now the engine and exhaust were in their place.

First the hydraulic brake and clutch lines. Cleaned the reservoirs and fitted new hoses.

Refitted the medal box, including the proportioning valve, to which the standard rear brake line is fitted with a new M10x1 fitting (the heater is being put aside to allow the electronic accelerator fitment later)

Further rear, the brake line passes through the now hydraulic hand brake.

A conversion of the stock handbrake.

When everything will be mounted for real the tunnel gets this reinforcement plate.

All hard lines connect in the rear on the front rail, in front and outside of the engine bay, so it does 't get in the way when the engine has to come out (again).

As there is a bit of surface rust to be taken care of plus I'll paint the engine bay the same red as the car, when the temperatures are again suitable for painting. The color is Peugeot EKG, or rouge écarlate (that initially was named rouge Ferrari, a name Peugeot was kindly asked to stop using...).

 

[kmead]

Hi all,
Spent some time sorting out the plumbing now the engine and exhaust were in their place.

First the hydraulic brake and clutch lines. Cleaned the reservoirs and fitted new hoses.
View attachment 69863
Refitted the medal box, including the proportioning valve, to which the standard rear brake line is fitted with a new M10x1 fitting (the heater is being put aside to allow the electronic accelerator fitment later)
View attachment 69864
Further rear, the brake line passes through the now hydraulic hand brake.
View attachment 69865
A conversion of the stock handbrake.
View attachment 69866
When everything will be mounted for real the tunnel gets this reinforcement plate.
View attachment 69868
All hard lines connect in the rear on the front rail, in front and outside of the engine bay, so it does 't get in the way when the engine has to come out (again).
View attachment 69867
As there is a bit of surface rust to be taken care of plus I'll paint the engine bay the same red as the car, when the temperatures are again suitable for painting. The color is Peugeot EKG, or rouge écarlate (that initially was named rouge Ferrari, a name Peugeot was kindly asked to stop using...).

Are you running 38mm rear calipers (Lancia Monte Carlo, Fiat 125)? The rears on an X with standard diameter piston rear calipers will likely never lock up the rears due to the way the system is biased with the small pistons.

I will be honest I am not a fan of a hydraulic emergency brake. I would choose an electric such as the ones used on the 500X (38mm piston) or a separate electrically actuated caliper (several available, Tesla’s use one like this).

Though thinking about it, you likely are choosing a rear caliper which doesn’t have a cable e brake and thus the proportioning valve and hydro e brake.

 

[kmead]

Aaah just noticed your early 500 front calipers mounted in the rear in one of your earlier posts. Are those 48mm pistons?

 

[My1stCar]

Are you running 38mm rear calipers (Lancia Monte Carlo, Fiat 125)? The rears on an X with standard diameter piston rear calipers will likely never lock up the rears due to the way the system is biased with the small pistons.

I will be honest I am not a fan of a hydraulic emergency brake. I would choose an electric such as the ones used on the 500X (38mm piston) or a separate electrically actuated caliper (several available, Tesla’s use one like this).

Though thinking about it, you likely are choosing a rear caliper which doesn’t have a cable e brake and thus the proportioning valve and hydro e brake.Indee

Are you running 38mm rear calipers (Lancia Monte Carlo, Fiat 125)? The rears on an X with standard diameter piston rear calipers will likely never lock up the rears due to the way the system is biased with the small pistons.

I will be honest I am not a fan of a hydraulic emergency brake. I would choose an electric such as the ones used on the 500X (38mm piston) or a separate electrically actuated caliper (several available, Tesla’s use one like this).

Though thinking about it, you likely are choosing a rear caliper which doesn’t have a cable e brake and thus the proportioning valve and hydro e brake.

Indeed, I once had a (minor) accident, didn't see a car coming from the right in an unknown neighbourhood, locked up the front brakes, and managed to stop my freshly painted X 50cm too late. I'm positive that if the rear brakes would have worked better I'd avoided the contact.

So, some thirthy years later, I found out that the new 500 diesel (that came out in 2007 or so) had front brakes with 48mm calipers that were a direct fit for my rear brakes. But they lacked the emergency brake cable functionality. So I opted for the hydraulic solution.

Standard the piston diameters are 48 front and 34 rear. I was looking for larger than 38mm rear calipers as they need to match the larger 54mm front calipers from the Stilo (same brakes as the 500 Abarth), and 54/38 is the same balance as 48/34. So 48 rears is what I'll try, hence the proportioning valve, I expect to have a bit too much rear braking force.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I've considered mounting front calipers on the rear, as part of a similar brake upgrade as yours. For the "park brake" I looked at two options; the same hydraulic system you have or a "park lock" valve. The "park lock" is basically a valve that holds the pressure to the rear calipers when activated. You depress the brake pedal to clamp the calipers then activate the valve to hold them clamped. The valve is designed such that another application of the brake pedal automatically opens it, returning the system to normal operation.

There's a couple versions of the park lock. A manual one (as I described above) and a electric solenoid one (similar to the modern E-brake). The electric version is a normally closed valve, so current is needed to open the circuit. Given the marginal electrical systems on the X I don't like that idea. Here's one version of the manual one:

From what I've read a hydraulic park brake mechanism (like yours) requires the brake pedal to be depressed before there's enough pressure for it to work. So it's like the "park lock" in that regard.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

the larger 54mm front calipers from the Stilo (same brakes as the 500 Abarth)

For those of us in the USA that are unfamiliar with the Stilo, you are saying it uses the same front calipers as the 500 Abarth?

In a prior "brake upgrade for the X" thread we learned that the 500 Abarth (in the USA, which is different from the rest of the world) uses the same calipers as the standard 500, but has different caliper brackets (carriers) to accommodate the larger rotors on the Abarth. So standard 500 calipers with Abarth brackets/carriers will work on the X [hope I remembered that right, haven't read that thread in a long time]. Regardless, it's not a critical distinction - other than Abarth calipers are more sought after here, and less were produced, therefore they are harder to get and more expensive.

the new 500 diesel (that came out in 2007 or so) had front brakes with 48mm calipers that were a direct fit for my rear brakes.

Interesting. I'm not very well versed on 500's in the USA. Did we ever get a 500 Diesel? I assume it requires the Diesel 500 calipers and the matching carriers (brackets)? Or can you use the X's carriers/brackets with those calipers?

These 48mm calipers might be a good option for a mild X front upgrade.

I was considering 500 front calipers on the front of the X. With stock X front calipers on the rear of the X. That does not address the poor design of the X sliders, but it is a easy and cheap way to get a decent balance of front/rear calipers for a X with less performance upgrades than yours. And that is where I considered the "park lock" discussed in my last post.

 

[kmead]

For those of us in the USA that are unfamiliar with the Stilo, you are saying it uses the same front calipers as the 500 Abarth?

In a prior "brake upgrade for the X" thread we learned that the 500 Abarth (in the USA, which is different from the rest of the world) uses the same calipers as the standard 500, but has different caliper brackets (carriers) to accommodate the larger rotors on the Abarth. So standard 500 calipers with Abarth brackets/carriers will work on the X [hope I remembered that right, haven't read that thread in a long time]. Regardless, it's not a critical distinction - other than Abarth calipers are more sought after here, and less were produced, therefore they are harder to get and more expensive.



Interesting. I'm not very well versed on 500's in the USA. Did we ever get a 500 Diesel? I assume it requires the Diesel 500 calipers and the matching carriers (brackets)? Or can you use the X's carriers/brackets with those calipers?

These 48mm calipers might be a good option for a mild X front upgrade.

I was considering 500 front calipers on the front of the X. With stock X front calipers on the rear of the X. That does not address the poor design of the X sliders, but it is a easy and cheap way to get a decent balance of front/rear calipers for a X with less performance upgrades than yours. And that is where I considered the "park lock" discussed in my last post.

Yes on the US 54mm front calipers which are the same on regular and Abarth 500s, he has retrofitted the diesel 500 front calipers to the rear which are 48mm. I have pointed out the front calipers from the EU 500 as a possible choice for the front of an X at 48mm pistons (same as an X) in the past. These 48s are single sliding pin, the later models all have dual sliding pins.

We never got the 500 diesel so those calipers will have to come over the pond.

TonyK did mount 500 front calipers to the second Abarth Turbo X, it took a bit of doing due to interference with the wheels on that car as I recall.

The USA 500 has rear calipers which are the same piston diameter as our X’s are. We do get the 500X/Jeep Renegade/Jeep Compass with electric rear calipers in 38mm and the 500L with manual 38mm rear calipers.

You need the modern car mountings as these are not like the 1966 design on the X, these are a sliding pin caliper (well in this case a single pin) similar to the ones one sees on ROW small displacement VWs.

 

[kmead]

Indeed, I once had a (minor) accident, didn't see a car coming from the right in an unknown neighbourhood, locked up the front brakes, and managed to stop my freshly painted X 50cm too late. I'm positive that if the rear brakes would have worked better I'd avoided the contact.

So, some thirthy years later, I found out that the new 500 diesel (that came out in 2007 or so) had front brakes with 48mm calipers that were a direct fit for my rear brakes. But they lacked the emergency brake cable functionality. So I opted for the hydraulic solution.

Standard the piston diameters are 48 front and 34 rear. I was looking for larger than 38mm rear calipers as they need to match the larger 54mm front calipers from the Stilo (same brakes as the 500 Abarth), and 54/38 is the same balance as 48/34. So 48 rears is what I'll try, hence the proportioning valve, I expect to have a bit too much rear braking force.

If that set up doesn’t work out, you might consider the 38mm 500L or 500X rear calipers in either manual or electric.

I see where you are going here.

 

[My1stCar]

Yes on the US 54mm front calipers which are the same on regular and Abarth 500s, he has retrofitted the diesel 500 front calipers to the rear which are 48mm. I have pointed out the front calipers from the EU 500 as a possible choice for the front of an X at 48mm pistons (same as an X) in the past. These 48s are single sliding pin, the later models all have dual sliding pins.

We never got the 500 diesel so those calipers will have to come over the pond.

TonyK did mount 500 front calipers to the second Abarth Turbo X, it took a bit of doing due to interference with the wheels on that car as I recall.

The USA 500 has rear calipers which are the same piston diameter as our X’s are. We do get the 500X/Jeep Renegade/Jeep Compass with electric rear calipers in 38mm and the 500L with manual 38mm rear calipers.

You need the modern car mountings as these are not like the 1966 design on the X, these are a sliding pin caliper (well in this case a single pin) similar to the ones one sees on ROW small displacement VWs.

View attachment 69875View attachment 69876View attachment 69877

You made me doubt which standard 500 front calipers I finally got, so I checked and it's these, the standard 1.2 gasoline engine (48mm pistons).

They are a great for easy pad changes.

For a while I thought about the diesel engine's because they have ventilated discs (same diameter discs, but 22mm thick). They also have 48mm pistons and the design is very similar to the Abarth/Stilo calipers, but smaller.

 

[My1stCar]

For those of us in the USA that are unfamiliar with the Stilo, you are saying it uses the same front calipers as the 500 Abarth?

In a prior "brake upgrade for the X" thread we learned that the 500 Abarth (in the USA, which is different from the rest of the world) uses the same calipers as the standard 500, but has different caliper brackets (carriers) to accommodate the larger rotors on the Abarth. So standard 500 calipers with Abarth brackets/carriers will work on the X [hope I remembered that right, haven't read that thread in a long time]. Regardless, it's not a critical distinction - other than Abarth calipers are more sought after here, and less were produced, therefore they are harder to get and more expensive.



Interesting. I'm not very well versed on 500's in the USA. Did we ever get a 500 Diesel? I assume it requires the Diesel 500 calipers and the matching carriers (brackets)? Or can you use the X's carriers/brackets with those calipers?

These 48mm calipers might be a good option for a mild X front upgrade.

I was considering 500 front calipers on the front of the X. With stock X front calipers on the rear of the X. That does not address the poor design of the X sliders, but it is a easy and cheap way to get a decent balance of front/rear calipers for a X with less performance upgrades than yours. And that is where I considered the "park lock" discussed in my last post.

Yes, you need to get the brake brackets from the 500 too, the Abarth and probably the Diesel versions only need the two 10mm holes in the wheel carrier to be drilled out to 12mm (and source the right diameter and offset discs, I think I posted the TRW parts for those in another thread).
The standard 500 calipers fit without any modifications.

 

[kmead]

Yes, you need to get the brake brackets from the 500 too, the Abarth and probably the Diesel versions only need the two 10mm holes in the wheel carrier to be drilled out to 12mm (and source the right diameter and offset discs, I think I posted the TRW parts for those in another thread).
The standard 500 calipers fit without any modifications.

So my only caution to you is the greater fluid volume needed for these greater diameter pistons. Others have used 48mm pistoned calipers front and rear with the OE master cylinder and suffered long pedal travel which made the car difficult to drive and questionable braking.

The volume of fluid the 19mm master cylinder can pump is fixed, I know Midwest Bayless has offered a higher output master, I don’t know any details about the solution, however they don’t list any as available at the moment. I don’t know that its output volume would make enough of a difference.

 

[My1stCar]

So my only caution to you is the greater fluid volume needed for these greater diameter pistons. Others have used 48mm pistoned calipers front and rear with the OE master cylinder and suffered long pedal travel which made the car difficult to drive and questionable braking.

The volume of fluid the 19mm master cylinder can pump is fixed, I know Midwest Bayless has offered a higher output master, I don’t know any details about the solution, however they don’t list any as available at the moment. I don’t know that its output volume would make enough of a difference.

Thanks, I also have my doubts the 19.05 mm master brake cylinder has too limited output volume. I think @TonyK also made me aware that MWB has a higher output version.

I opted for the 257 mm discs, 54 mm pistons front and 240 mm discs, 48 mm pistons rear, as due to the change in disc diameter (mechanical leverage) plus piston diameter (hydraulic al leverage) that would change the natural brake balance from 67% front / 33% rear to 58% front / 42% rear. The proportioning valve is in case that's a bit too much rear.

The consequence is that I need 50% more volume (or pedal stroke and only 2/3 the pedal force), which is likely too much difference. I kind of hope that the Fiat 500 1.2 front calipers have less free distance to travel compared rear calipers with a mechanical handbrake mechanism, but I will test and when it doesn't work I either opt for the MWB solution, or adapt the Stilo master cylinder, as that is a 22.2 mm master cylinder. The latter option would still increase the hydraulic leverage compared to stock (or increase the pedal stroke but now only 10% and 9/10 pedal force).

 

[Dr.Jeff]

The consequence is that I need 50% more volume (or pedal stroke and only 2/3 the pedal force), which is likely too much difference. I kind of hope that the Fiat 500 1.2 front calipers have less free distance to travel compared rear calipers with a mechanical handbrake mechanism, but I will test and when it doesn't work I either opt for the MWB solution, or adapt the Stilo master cylinder, as that is a 22.2 mm master cylinder. The latter option would still increase the hydraulic leverage compared to stock (or increase the pedal stroke but now only 10% and 9/10 pedal force).

I think you will find your caliper upgrades are significant and require a significant increase in the master cylinder output.

The "upgraded" master from MWB has the same piston as the stock unit, and therefore no difference in bore diameter. I believe the increased volume output is achieved by a slightly greater piston stroke travel. And that will make a small change in output, plus further increases a already too long travel distance. In my opinion it would only be effective for improving the pressure on a stock system or possibly a very mild brake upgrade (e.g. slightly larger pistons on only one end of the car). So you might be better off exploring the conversion to a Stilo master.

 

[My1stCar]

Completed the plumbing of the coolant circuit. All the connections to the reservoir, heater and radiator are made to fit using a combination of hoses and bends of the Stilo and some Mercedes SLK radiator hoses. The latter looked to be close to what I needed, but I was not happy how close they came to the exhaust.

So, I decided to include some steel tubes, wich I think will not be as affected by the heat radiation as they will be more effectively cooled by the coolant circulation than the epdm hoses. Plus, not very obvious from this angle, they clear the exhaust now by about 3 cm (was less then 1 cm in the top picture).

This routing also pulls the gear cables less towards the exhaust. The cables now have some simple brackets to keep them in place and from touching the intermediate axle.

In the top picture you can also see the additional brace (black) that I added to the anti torque strut, I wasn't totally happy to let the bolt do all the resistance against bending all alone.

 

[My1stCar]

Spent some time this weekend with my dad dismantling the interior of the Stilo to get the wiring loom out. That is definitely more work than imagined.

We did get the accelerator pedal out, and unlike the 500 Abarth's it's a metal pedal. So instead of the linkage in @TonyK 's swaps, I could shorten/adapt the pedal and by miracle there was just enough room on the front bulk head next to the steering to fit it the simple way. Simply by bolting it on and one bolt hole was already there (that was for the clip of the speedometer cable).

The accelerator sits in roughly the same place as the original, but now pivots at the top, which I like. The stroke is a bit on the shortish side, but I think it will fit the X's character.

 

[Bjorn Nilson]

The accelerator sits in roughly the same place as the original, but now pivots at the top, which I like. The stroke is a bit on the shortish side, but I think it will fit the X's character.

Is this an E-gas pedal? It looks like that setup would allow toe-heel operation. Never managed that in a good way with the stock pedal.