Sump baffles

FiatFunk

Daily Driver
How important do you guys think sump baffles are? I have a baffled sump in my integrale, don't in my spider and have never had a problem driving both of them pretty hard but not racing.
Couple hundred bucks seems like too much for a bent piece of steel sheet. Could maybe diy one but of course it would take a fair bit of time.
 

carl

True Classic
A stock 124 oil pan comes with a bolt on baffle. Track days in my spiders could cause pressure loss in hard corners but overfilling the sump by one quart is the usual fix for that.
 

Steve Hoelscher

True Classic
For street driving you shouldn't have a problem as long as you maintain the proper oil level. If you're doing serious back-road corner carving, as Carl noted, you will likely want to overfill some.
 

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
I'm reminded of a recent "Engine Masters" episode where they dyno'ed a engine with different levels of oil in the sump to see the effect on output. Not that the show uses 'scientific experiment methodologies' by any means. And not that a American V8 will yield the same results as a Fiat SOHC or DOHC. But it was interesting how adding anything more than the factory quantity of oil had a negative impact on power output. And filling LESS than the factory level actually increased performance. The changes were due to oil pan 'windage', and while they were not huge they were actually much more than I would have thought. Considering we're dealing with a engine that makes less than 100HP to begin with we really can't afford to lose much. However I'd rather lose a bit of power than spin a bearing.
 
I'm reminded of a recent "Engine Masters" episode where they dyno'ed a engine with different levels of oil in the sump to see the effect on output. Not that the show uses 'scientific experiment methodologies' by any means. And not that a American V8 will yield the same results as a Fiat SOHC or DOHC. But it was interesting how adding anything more than the factory quantity of oil had a negative impact on power output. And filling LESS than the factory level actually increased performance. The changes were due to oil pan 'windage', and while they were not huge they were actually much more than I would have thought. Considering we're dealing with a engine that makes less than 100HP to begin with we really can't afford to lose much. However I'd rather lose a bit of power than spin a bearing.
Has anyone done the Fiat SOHC engine with a dry sump and compared results?
 

Lowtechprime

True Classic
My 128 would have the oil light come on in even mild right turns. I added a windage tray for it's benefits, but added bonus is it keeps the oil in the pan under cornering..
IMG_20190914_143251845~2.jpg
 

carl

True Classic
I don't think the oil light should come on in light turns, that suggests a problem. Maybe the wrong dipstick?
For a few track days a year, adding a quart is an effective and inexpensive solution even if you do get a power loss. Let's face it, you are going to do point bys to every other car out there anyway. Subies and ex spec Miatas have a nasty habit of making us look bad down the straights...even if you are a super hero and run up their ass on turn entries.
 

MikeHynes

True Classic
Be careful when you add extra oil to your sump. A little is OK, but if you add so much that the oil level is up into the crank you'll have problems. When the crank is whipping all that extra oil up it doesn't just cost you power, it also makes the oil hotter, and adds lots of air bubbles to it. Not good, but neither is loosing oil pressure in the corners. Baffles are your friend.
BTW - I read an article about testing oil pans/baffles. As your oil is pretty much at the same viscosity as water when it's hot you can use water to see what happens to the oil in your engine when you corner. In the article the guy tested stock and modified pans/baffles. He enlisted a buddy to sit in the passenger's seat of the car. Then filled the oil pan he was testing with the proper amount of water and handed it to his buddy to hold as the car was driven like a madman around the corners. Yea, without baffles the water just sloshed out. Messy, but representative of what hot oil does when you corner. Of course the oil doesn't spill out of the engine when you corner, but it does get into the spinning crank. And if enough gets sloshed up into the spinning crank, you loose oil pressure. Again, baffles are your friend.
 

kmead

Glutton for punishment
I know the perimeter of a baffle would be based on the gasket and oil pan perimeter. Do we have a template of what one would be for the holes and the bends? I presume it would be two piece, the perimeter and the two downward bends and a triple V shaped part welded to it.

That would be a nice part to have in our library of engine mods/adds.
 

khez

Low Mileage
I don't think the oil light should come on in light turns, that suggests a problem. Maybe the wrong dipstick?
For a few track days a year, adding a quart is an effective and inexpensive solution even if you do get a power loss. Let's face it, you are going to do point bys to every other car out there anyway. Subies and ex spec Miatas have a nasty habit of making us look bad down the straights...even if you are a super hero and run up their ass on turn entries.
Hi,
Ive driven my X HARD, SUPER HARD on competition tires, and NEVER EVER had the oil light come on!
Most commob cause is LOW oil! So be SURE to always check your oil level with the car on a "LEVEL surface!

If your oil is full, you could have a broken sump (usuallt not unless you hit the oil pan hard on something and dented it), OR your oil light SENDING UNIT may be faulty!! You can check for that by either screwing a mechanical oil pressure gauge into the sender hole to take a reading, or swapping it with a new one.

But SOMETHING is not right if ANY TURN causes the light to come on!
 

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
if you add so much that the oil level is up into the crank you'll have problems. When the crank is whipping all that extra oil up it doesn't just cost you power, it also makes the oil hotter, and adds lots of air bubbles to it.
Exactly. The oil hitting the crank is basically the "windage" effect I was referencing earlier. That is what caused the decreased power on the dyno results. However a potentially bigger issue is what Mike is saying about aerating the oil as it gets whipped. That is potentially disastrous as the oil pump cannot properly circulate the oil when it gets like that. So you've then effectively created the very problem you were trying to prevent - oil starvation. However I don't know just how much extra oil is too much.
 

LarryC

Curator of #10105275
There use to be something called a "windage tray" that you could get to bolt into your oil pan on V-8s. Anything like that in in SOHC world? With the higher RPMs one would think that it would be a thing.
Whoops, just noticed Lowtechprime posted something. Seems like the solution...
 

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
In the past there's been a couple of aftermarket windage tray products for the SOHC. I doubt any of them are still available.
 

Lowtechprime

True Classic
In the past there's been a couple of aftermarket windage tray products for the SOHC. I doubt any of them are still available.
Andrea at Classic Performance in Croatia still makes a windage tray for the SOHC.... By the way, that engine that had the light come on in right turns had the original style pickup that was totally open with a screen instead of the later pickup with just a small hole. It was notorious for sucking in air...
 

fiatfactory

Steve Cecchele
Andrea at Classic Performance in Croatia still makes a windage tray for the SOHC....
Which is pretty much and exact copy of the PBS one...

By the way, that engine that had the light come on in right turns had the original style pickup that was totally open with a screen instead of the later pickup with just a small hole. It was notorious for sucking in air...
The additional cover with the single hole is called an anti-cavitation shield, it found it's way onto pretty much everything Fiat since the early 1970's, it keeps the suction vortex in the best position

SteveC
 

speedy fiat

True Classic
I don't think the oil light should come on in light turns, that suggests a problem. Maybe the wrong dipstick?
For a few track days a year, adding a quart is an effective and inexpensive solution even if you do get a power loss. Let's face it, you are going to do point bys to every other car out there anyway. Subies and ex spec Miatas have a nasty habit of making us look bad down the straights...even if you are a super hero and run up their ass on turn entries.
We had an issue with oil levels after an engine rebuild and it turned out that I'd replaced the wrong dipstick. It was SOHC Fiat one, but no idea where it came from, or why it was modified.
 

DaleS

uh, maybe
I've hesitated to chime in here because I know that everybody has different experiences, but I've been forced to rebuild engines a number of times in my race car due to oil starvation. My car will flash the oil pressure warning light in fast right-handers, and only gets worse if you throw in a few bumps. I've always run a PBS baffle, added a quart, and even added baffles to the oil pan, but nothing has completely resolved the issue. Given the cost of a rebuild, not to mention the downtime, I've recently decided that I won't put my car (a dedicated club-racer) on the track again without a dry sump system.
 
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abarth4

True Classic
We had an issue with oil levels after an engine rebuild and it turned out that I'd replaced the wrong dipstick. It was SOHC Fiat one, but no idea where it came from, or why it was modified.
Reminds me of a story WAAAY back in my working days at Bosch. I was working at a development facility in Germany and a, let's call it.... "Major North American automobile manufacturer" had an engine on our dyno. As soon as it would accelerate off idle, emissions would go through the roof and it was obviously burning it's oil. Many, many dyno hours followed (can you say $$$ :oops:) with parts swapping etc. and no improvement. Then one day an engineer from the States was over to help and he observed the dyno operator filling the engine with oil... and filling.... and filling. "It holds 4 quarts, he said...how much are you putting in?" "8 quarts came the answer... see, it's just at the full mark on the dipstick" Turns out someone in the R&D build area in Detroit had put the wrong dipstick in the engine. Correct dipstick = problem solved. Many, many hours and dollars later! D'OH !!!!!
 
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