Sump baffles

The issue with having a improper dipstick might not be as obvious to spot as one might think. I've come across used engines (Fiat and otherwise) with either no dipstick, some random replacement one, a modified one, or the wrong dipstick tube/tube cap installed in the block. And honestly there isn't always a easy way to tell exactly what should be there. Especially if you're not completely familiar with that specific engine - or sometimes even if you are - particularly on cars that originally came with different dipsticks for different year models, etc.. I guess the simplest way to tell is to completely drain the engine of oil (including the filter), refill it to the exact level (assuming that is correctly known....not always the case), then see what the dipstick shows. But there are times when even that isn't easy to do, such as custom oil pans that take a different volume of oil from stock, or the engine isn't fully assembled (so you can't fill it) but you are trying to assemble all of the needed parts for when it is finished.

Another related issue I've seen is when the little "stopper" at the top of the stock dipstick has rotted, worn, moved, gone missing, etc, so the dipstick doesn't go the correct distance into the tube.
 
Which is pretty much and exact copy of the PBS one...


The additional cover with the single hole is called an anti-cavitation shield, it found it's way onto pretty much everything Fiat since the early 1970's, it keeps the suction vortex in the best position

SteveC
I think 'Suction Vortex' should be be the name of my new rock band!🤘
 
I've hesitated to chime in here because I know that everybody has different experiences, but I've been forced to rebuild engines a number of times in my race car due to oil starvation. My car will flash the oil pressure warning light in fast right-handers, and only gets worse if you throw in a few bumps. I've always run a PBS baffle, added a quart, and even added baffles to the oil pan, but nothing has completely resolved the issue. Given the cost of a rebuild, not to mention the downtime, I've recently decided that I won't put my car (a dedicated club-racer) on the track again without a dry sump system.
Dale:
Something is wrong here.
I raced a 1500 X 1/9 in H production SCCA National racing 2004 to 2010. Divisional champion in 2005 and 2009. Went to National Runoffs in 2010. My oil system was stock with these modifications:
-PBS baffle
- PBS oil pressure spring
I never had oil starvation or bearing problems.
Before you spend time and bucks on a dry sump, maybe consider ACCU-Sump for protection.
For reference, my X had 101 ground pounding hp at the rear wheels.
Now, I am restoring 70's Formula Atlantic cars for vintage racing.
 

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I've hesitated to chime in here because I know that everybody has different experiences, but I've been forced to rebuild engines a number of times in my race car due to oil starvation. My car will flash the oil pressure warning light in fast right-handers, and only gets worse if you throw in a few bumps. I've always run a PBS baffle, added a quart, and even added baffles to the oil pan, but nothing has completely resolved the issue. Given the cost of a rebuild, not to mention the downtime, I've recently decided that I won't put my car (a dedicated club-racer) on the track again without a dry sump system.
I don't currently plan on using my x on the track (although we've got plenty of roads around BC that resemble tracks) Out of curiosity, how much might a dry sump set up cost a guy?
 
Dale:
Something is wrong here.
I raced a 1500 X 1/9 in H production SCCA National racing 2004 to 2010. Divisional champion in 2005 and 2009. Went to National Runoffs in 2010. My oil system was stock with these modifications:
-PBS baffle
- PBS oil pressure spring
I never had oil starvation or bearing problems.
Before you spend time and bucks on a dry sump, maybe consider ACCU-Sump for protection.
For reference, my X had 101 ground pounding hp at the rear wheels.
Now, I am restoring 70's Formula Atlantic cars for vintage racing.
Are you posting anywhere on the progress of the Atlantic cars? Cheers, Dave
 
I don't currently plan on using my x on the track (although we've got plenty of roads around BC that resemble tracks) Out of curiosity, how much might a dry sump set up cost a guy?
It is a significant bit of engineering requiring a new oil pan, scavenge pump to get the oil out of the pan and rework of the oil supply to the engine.

This is a generalized explanation of such a system. One for a Fiat would be somewhat different.

As stated an Accusump would likely be a much better solution to ensure constant oil supply and pressure.

 
After a few days of thought on FFunk's oil pressure problem, some more ideas: The X 1/9 oil sump is a two element design. The cast aluminum oil pan and the pressed sheet metal plate which screws to bosses in the pan. The plate keeps the oil in the deep end of the sump. The plate's mounting tabs can develop cracks and fatigue breaks. I have had the welding department repair/reinforce these cracks from time to time. Of course, if the plate was omitted, you would certainly starve the oil pump in hard cornering and braking.
 
After a few days of thought on FFunk's oil pressure problem, some more ideas: The X 1/9 oil sump is a two element design. The cast aluminum oil pan and the pressed sheet metal plate which screws to bosses in the pan. The plate keeps the oil in the deep end of the sump. The plate's mounting tabs can develop cracks and fatigue breaks. I have had the welding department repair/reinforce these cracks from time to time. Of course, if the plate was omitted, you would certainly starve the oil pump in hard cornering and braking.
Thanks, I haven't had any oil pressure problem, I've never driven my car for more than 2 blocks and two corners! I'm working on a rebuild and am inquiring about improving the oil system. I'll be looking into an accusump.
 
Thanks, I haven't had any oil pressure problem, I've never driven my car for more than 2 blocks and two corners! I'm working on a rebuild and am inquiring about improving the oil system. I'll be looking into an accusump.
FYI I have autocrossed my Xs over the years and have not had this issue but most of my events have not had long sustained turns. I have never had an oil issue in normal driving and I do drive my cars fairly hard.

Unless you are building towards a full race X I don’t know as you need to worry too much about this.
 
Hopefully I'm not getting too far off topic here. But since this thread is about engine oil supply, sumps, baffles, etc, I'll include thoughts about the oil pump, oil galleys and other related items.

As Karl said, if the car is driven hard enough to cause oil pickup issues then I assume it is a performance application of one sort of another. And since performance engines require good oil flow to all of the vital components, a high volume oil pump is often utilized....particularly if things like a oil cooler are added. Unfortunately there is no such pump for the SOHC that I'm aware of. We've discussed this before; there are a couple different stock pump designs but they really do not offer any difference in terms of flow volume.

We also discussed the "pressure vs volume" thing. Increasing the spring tension on the oil bypass reduces the amount of oil that is bypassed, therefore increasing the volume (as well as pressure) that is supplied to the internal components.

The other important aspect is to assure the oil galleys are clean and clear. It is amazing how much crud there is inside all of the oil passages throughout the entire engine. I've even played with opening up some of the galleys a little by boring the passages to a slightly larger diameter, in the hopes of allowing better flow to certain crucial areas. And don't forget about cleaning behind the screen/plate over the oil pump pick up. You will be shocked to see what has collected inside there.

Adding a oil cooler to keep the oil temp in check is something that I don't hear mentioned much on Xweb. I am a big believer in them.

However I fully agree, all of this is of no use if the pump isn't picking up oil in the first place (starvation). Which bring us back to the topic at hand. Has anyone experimented with a "mini baffle" attached to the oil pick up? VW added a couple different designs of this to their engines, commonly referred to as the "small" and "large" versions (the large one has two partitions). The factory ones are plastic and simply clip on to the pick up plate. Here's an example of the small one:
055115221Bdone.jpg

cp014815-oil-pump-pickup-vw-jetta-golf-rabbit-scirocco-pickup-mk1-mk2-049-115-153-b-2.jpg
 
"I've even played with opening up some of the galleys a little by boring the passages to a slightly larger diameter, in the hopes of allowing better flow to certain crucial areas."
Given that the pump's output is fixed, I think all this would do is lower the pressure, which seems less than ideal. Just my 2¢....
 
"I've even played with opening up some of the galleys a little by boring the passages to a slightly larger diameter, in the hopes of allowing better flow to certain crucial areas."
Given that the pump's output is fixed, I think all this would do is lower the pressure, which seems less than ideal. Just my 2¢....
Agreed, that's why I've upped the pump's pressure by increasing the bypass spring tension. After everything is finished and I can do some engine run testing I will decide if anything needs to be changed.
 
A lot of modified cars use horizontal baffles. In my road car that's occasionally used on the track I modified the standard windage tray to block off the gaps shown at the red spots, to stop all of the oil flowing to the shallow end during RH high speed corners. I also brazed a 5mm high ring under the pump pickup hole to effectively lower the pump 5mm deeper into the oil. Plus over filled by half a litre of oil. Worked for me, oil light has never come on.
20220524_171452.jpg
 
I don't have a picture of one handy (someone will I'm sure) but an 850 coupe with the alloy sump uses quite a clever baffle with a pair of "trap doors" that limit the oils movement away from the pickup, they both only swing inwards, so will allow oil to flow towards the pickup but not away from it, a system like this is the most effective to keep oil around the pickup in hard / high speed turns.

The standard X19 baffle is more to keep the oil from sloshing up and into the spinning crank.

edit: just had a quick search online and found this, it shows the pickup baffle
850 oil sump baffle.jpg


SteveC
 
That same principle with a "cup" and trap doors surrounding the pick-up is also commonly used in fuel tanks. This can be similar in concept to the simple "add-on" baffle that I referenced earlier.
 
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