The great camshaft comparison....

Discussion in 'Workshop Forum' started by fiatfactory, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    It just happens for a couple of the heads I'm building for customers are being fitted with NOS original Fiat European cams. One is a narrow lobe type 128 coupe cam (4331512), one is a 1500 euro cam (4333059) so I thought I would measure these for a direct comparison of two NOS cams (last time I had 2 NOS euro cams I didn't do it, and I doubt it will happen a third time)

    My wife used to say "if you have more than three of something, it's a collection", so I guess I collect camshafts!

    So I figured while I'm at it I"ll line them all up for a photo opportunity, the NOS Euro cams on the left,

    next in line I have NOS Pittatore B22 (euro 1300 but wide lobe) , NOS {Pittatore B22/5, NOS Pittatore B22/12B, NOS Pittatore #77 grind, NOS Pittatore #86 Grind, NOS Pittatore #87 grind, NOS Pittatore Billet Unknown grind (no markings), used Pttatore #286 grind, NOS Alquati A20, NOS Alquati A20/1, Unknown billet cam (my Dad bought this new from Italy for me almost 40 years ago, he told me Abarth, but no markings)

    20190614_235914.jpg

    I'll measure up the Euro cams first, as those I need to fit to heads...and then follow up and add to the data compiled by Ulix and the guys at the German X19 forum in the Excel format.

    SteveC
     
  2. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Very cool Steve. You had me with the title. But the picture is even better. Shall we call it "X" rated?

    Looking forward to to learning more. Is the data by Ulix and the German forum guys in English and readily available for us to view? Thanks
     
  3. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    Oh no, you opened the boxes so you killed the collector value of all those cams.

    I can tell my wife that your wife says we have a "collection" of kids (4).
     
    mkmini likes this.
  4. Ulix

    Ulix True Classic

    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Yes. :)

    Great project Steve!
    I am really looking forward to the data.
    Just make sure you have a dial indicator with a range >10mm. :)
     
  5. Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) Waitin' On Parts...

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    This is like a Masters Course in Automotive Phrenology. :D
     
    Jimmy II and Pete Whitstone like this.
  6. Eastep

    Eastep True Classic

    Location:
    PA
    Steve: will this thread be linked or added to the Ultimate SOHC thread?

    Thanks for taking the time to amass such a collection and for taking to time to document your findings.

    I'm curious to the performance of the Euro 1500 cam as compared to similar aftermarket parts.
     
  7. Tom Ginefra

    Tom Ginefra True Classic

    Location:
    Northern NJ
    Just looking at all these in a row...my head's about to explode!:)
     
  8. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    My measurement fixture.
    20190616_004138.jpg

    Give me a couple of days to do the all measurements between my other jobs...

    @Jeff ... yes it's an Excel file that Ulix shared with me so I guess it's a public domain document, apparently some of the German X1/9 Forum guys got together over a few steins of lager and measured a few cams.. I'm just going to do pretty much the same thing and add to that public domain document, for more complete information and hopefully some discussion.

    To all readers in general...There are some people that in the past have objected to "their" cams being measured and this information being made public, exactly their reasons for this, I'm not sure. As far as I'm aware - and someone please correct me if I'm wrong - that you can not "patent" a lobe design and once you SELL that cam design in question to the end user, the manufacturer gives away their "right" (if they in fact had any) to the information about that lobe profile. Sure there would be exceptions and information secrecy clauses in high end racing contracts ... at the leading edge any advantage (in drag racing it's measured in milliseconds) is something that's been paid for by the teams, but in the world of Fiat engine building I don't think we are anywhere near that sort of level, so I'm happy to share any information I gather.

    @ carl ... I'd rather have a collection of cams than a collection of kids...2 x teenage girls was more than enough for me.

    @ Ulix ... as it turns out the only dial gauge I have here at home at the moment is my imperial one that lives on the flow bench, where I work in thou lift measurements (sometimes) it's a 0 to 1 inch at 0.001 increments, so enough for this exercise. The USA guys will probably prefer it - but I think a little clever Excel work will give a choice of metric / imperial for whatever you prefer.

    @ Dan ... your parched wit always brings a smile.

    @ Eastep .. yep, all part of the "book", so this will (in some format) find it's way into that thread.

    @ Tom ... should I put a warning on my postings? "Not to be viewed by old guys on heart medication" :)

    SteveC
     
    jrt, bpimm, PaulD and 3 others like this.
  9. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Cool testing set up Steve. I like the dual purpose 'bracket' to hold the dial gauge over the lobe and the pointer over the degree wheel. ;)


    In this case you are not making or copying anything, just reporting findings. So even if there was a patent on it, that would only protect the design from being duplicated. There is nothing to stop anyone from 'looking' at a product, which is what is going on. Sharing your 'observations' cannot be controlled. So nothing to worry about regardless. :)

    I agree with the comment made by "Eastep", it would be interesting to see how the Euro cam actually compares to some of the aftermarket ones. With your vast experience with these engines, it would be appreciated if you can possibly offer a few comments toward that notion as you go through them. Maybe express how the differences in profiles for each cam might affect performance parameters, etc, generally speaking. To that point, I wish it were possible for you to have access to the very common aftermarket cams from the popular Fiat suppliers that are claimed to be "copies" of the Euro cam.

    Great stuff, thanks again.
     
  10. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    In the US, you had one year from public disclosure to file for a patent application.
    If you did get a patent for a cam profile and marketed it and someone measured it, you still could not make or sell it till the patent expired. If a patent was granted for the particular cam lobe specs, you wouldn't have to measure it as part of the application disclosure would be all those specs. Nice to know that my 42 years in the US Patent and Trademark Office was able to provide some minor info here. I did not work in the automotive arts except for some brief time working on clutch patents so I have no idea what can be patented for a camshaft.

    Steve, you do know the next step is to put all those cams in a motor and do dyno runs for each.

    I'll see your two daughters, and raise you a third daughter....my son is no problem at all and just helped me take my duff engine block and crank to the dump.
     
    Dr.Jeff likes this.
  11. Ulix

    Ulix True Classic

    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Regarding the euro cam, my data already showed it to be pretty much the same as a FAZA 35/75 and a PBS S2.
     
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  12. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Ulix, do you have a link to your data or the spread sheets Steve has mentioned?
     
    Eastep likes this.
  13. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    A different picture and a little explanation of the setup.
    20190616_021605.jpg

    Buckets have a couple of shims stacked inside, two reasons ...some weight to keep the lifter following the cams profile,and a flat surface for the dial gauge pointer to run against. Dial gauge pointer obviously needs to be vertical to the cambox base in all directions to prevent errors of sine in the measurements.

    Degree wheel is a LARGE diameter ... this gives far greater accuracy. I usually mount this to the crank nose to set the cam up on an engine, so needed to turn up a small bush so it centres on the M10 cam bolt. It's marked off with BDC and TDC and 0 - 90 - 0 between these reference points... for cam measurement the angles are doubled, as the cam would be turning at half crank speed, I can do a fair job of halving the increments on my degree wheel, so I can do the measurements in 1 crank degree intervals.

    Pointer is "re-purposed" an OE cambelt cover backing plate, to give a reference pointer for TDC on the OE 1500 cam gear. This allows me to position my degree wheel and zero off against the pointer at the cams TDC position. attached to the backplate is a "re-purposed" 1500 sohc crank pulley timing pointer, just happens to nicely fit together and provide a sturdy reference point.

    SteveC
     
  14. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Ahhh, I see it better now, thanks. From the first picture I mistakenly thought the pointer for the wheel was coming off the dial indicator base. Neat rig.

    I'm a bit of what some refer to as a "tool whore". So an interesting meaningless off-the-wall observation here; in the background of your picture is a engine stand that looks identical to the ones sold by a large and popular chain of tool stores here in the US. I've seen in British magazines there is a very similar chain of stores in Europe, but their stuff has a very different look to it. So I'm guessing the stores in Australia might be the same company as in the US, or at least carry the same equipment. When I travel to various countries around the world I enjoy seeing what their markets carry in comparison to those in the US. I know you have also traveled and worked in other countries, maybe you've found some interesting differences?
     
  15. Eastep

    Eastep True Classic

    Location:
    PA
    Did you measure the 1300 1512 Euro cam or the later 1500 3059? Or the "imposter" Euro cam 8713?
     
  16. EricH

    EricH Eric Hamilton Moderator

    Location:
    Durham NC, USA
    I’m not Ulix, but the spreadsheet is on the wiki, linked off of this page: http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php/Camshaft
     
  17. EricH

    EricH Eric Hamilton Moderator

    Location:
    Durham NC, USA
    Most likely they come from the same factory in China
     
  18. Excellent initiative Steve! I'd recommend that we amend the current Wiki page with the additional results. If you need a hand with the formatting I'm happy to help.

    Cheers,
    Dom.
     
  19. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    That has always been (sort of) the plan... in the back ground on the same bench I'm doing the cam comparison is the "muletto" motor... the constants will be bottom end and inlet manifold for some back to back testing of the cylinder heads I've built, which have some slight differences...and then "selected" cam changes to suit the different iterations as the engine develops...once it hits a peak... swap the crank and pistons out for a 1600 and see what the difference is.

    20190616_071302.jpg

    I have a pretty good idea of what the results of each configuration will be, but it will be nice to prove it with some real world (repeatable) numbers ... and then I can finish this book...

    and start on the DOHC version (I've got a shelf full of NOS DOHC heads to flow test) 20190616_072535.jpg

    SteveC
     
    Ulix and Dr.Jeff like this.
  20. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Oh, THAT spreadsheet. Thanks Eric.
    Honestly I'd forgotten that existed, but was thinking the current discussion was about something different in Germany.
    I agree with Dom, the new data should be added to that page.
     

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