Third gear grind is back

Cratecruncher said:
You just need forward, back, and a few degrees of rotation
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But keep in mind, the rotation comes from a side to side pivoting action at the other end, so there needs to be enough freedom for the movement to translate from a swinging action to a rotating one (hope that made sense). Maybe a ball socket/mono ball/spherical/heim type support will work, but with a sliding bushing added in the center of it (for the forward/rearward movement):
s-l300.jpg Rod_End_-_Heim_Joint_Spherical_Bearing_1-2_Inch_5.jpg
 
I read this thread with interest since my '82 has 2nd to 3rd gear grind, UNLESS carefully shifted. It wasn't always that way.
Anyone have an idea what a good shop would charge to repair?
 
sjmst said:
I read this thread with interest since my '82 has 2nd to 3rd gear grind, UNLESS carefully shifted. It wasn't always that way.
Anyone have an idea what a good shop would charge to repair?
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The hardest part will be sourcing the parts needed for the repair. As previously stated on previous threads, correct OE transmission parts are getting very hard to find. I have been on the lookout for an OE third/fourth slider for a year now for a spare 5 speed I have. There are non OE parts out there but the quality is not the same and could result in less than acceptable results. Trust me I know.
There are several great threads on this board that will walk you through the rebuild process if you are willing to do the work yourself. If not you should contact Steve H. as he is the expert on rebuilding and has offered his services in the past.
Good Luck and keep us posted.
 
artz1731 said:
The hardest part will be sourcing the parts needed for the repair. As previously stated on previous threads, correct OE transmission parts are getting very hard to find. I have been on the lookout for an OE third/fourth slider for a year now for a spare 5 speed I have. There are non OE parts out there but the quality is not the same and could result in less than acceptable results. Trust me I know.
There are several great threads on this board that will walk you through the rebuild process if you are willing to do the work yourself. If not you should contact Steve H. as he is the expert on rebuilding and has offered his services in the past.
Good Luck and keep us posted.
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Thank you!

Is this a slider?
http://www.spiderroadster.com/4366610price.htm
 
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Yep that’s what it looks like. I don’t know much about this Vendor but I would be willing to bet it’s not an OE (Fiat) made slider.
I tried a non OE slider from another source two years ago...it didn’t go well. Ended up having to pull the Transmission after fresh rebuild only to find the slider in question was out of spec.
You won’t really know what you need until you get the unit out and start tearing it apart.
 
$1500 is in line with what a typical shop would quote however; unless he has extensive experience with this specific transmission you will likely be unhappy with the results. Many of the units I build have been done previously by others who were not able to make the unit work properly. These transmissions are much more temperamental than most anything seen by the average import technician and require extensive experience and knowledge to correct their issues. I also see many that are simply incorrectly assembled.

The slider you linked above appears to be an OE part in the photograph but the OE parts are no longer available and aftermarket replacements, for the slider and synchros are of poor quality and performance.

I will be glad to discuss doing the job for you if you would like. Please PM me.
 
Hi Steve. He's a very experienced Alfa/ Fiat mechanic, so I think he's my best shot. That's if I decide to do kit, it's a mild annoyance not a major problem. thanks!!
 
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Steve Hoelscher said:
The slider you linked above appears to be an OE part in the photograph but the OE parts are no longer available and aftermarket replacements, for the slider and synchros are of poor quality and performance.
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Are OE synchros available? What do you do when you start working on a box that needs a 3rd/4th slider? Scavenge an acceptable one from a used box?
 
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I was very lucky and found an old stock OE one on EBay when I rebuilt my current box.
I have a spare box that I completely rebuilt but needs the 3/4 slider to complete. I will be patient and hopefully one will pop up again. If an x box comes up for sale locally I won’t hesitate to at least check it out.
These parts are getting next to impossible to source.
 
None of the popular vendors have OE Synchros or sliders. Only the cheap crappy sliders and one of the two aftermarket synchros, of which one is sub-standard and the other terrible. Even the 1-2 synchors are now crap.

I found a quantity of good quality sliders and synchros and bought all of them. Most of the other parts are available but I see evidence that those inventories are limited.
 
sjmst said:
Hi Steve. He's a very experienced Alfa/ Fiat mechanic, so I think he's my best shot. That's if I decide to do kit, it's a mild annoyance not a major problem. thanks!!
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I don't know who your guy might be but I have become a skeptic. Probably a full third of my work is going behind "an experienced Fiat mechanics". I only know of one other person I would trust to do a proper job and she is on this board. ;)
 
Me not being a machinist. I still keep having the thought. can't a different style of Synchros be machined into a bad gear (that only has the Synchros part worn) and upgrade it to something more robust?

I am so on the fence about doing a powertrain swap or doing the Alt x1/9 engine build. And the gearbox is a BIG part of the dream. (2k) for a great rebuild, But it can only be as good as they were when new (and from what I am hearing) that is not even possible anymore.

It would be great to find a way to do something that would be long lasting!!

(please don't take any of the above as a jab or poke at anyone) I love the support we all have for our little car. (I have two that are daily drivers. And Both the wife and my self love them.)
 
Rod Midkiff said:
Me not being a machinist. I still keep having the thought. can't a different style of Synchros be machined into a bad gear (that only has the Synchros part worn) and upgrade it to something more robust?

I am so on the fence about doing a powertrain swap or doing the Alt x1/9 engine build. And the gearbox is a BIG part of the dream. (2k) for a great rebuild, But it can only be as good as they were when new (and from what I am hearing) that is not even possible anymore.

It would be great to find a way to do something that would be long lasting!!

(please don't take any of the above as a jab or poke at anyone) I love the support we all have for our little car. (I have two that are daily drivers. And Both the wife and my self love them.)
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I hear you on this. Above and beyond the desire to gain a reasonable amount of power, putting that power through a transmission which may not be able to sustain it is very concerning.

I have never had transmission trouble on cars I bought new and most end up with over 150k miles, none of my Fiats were cars I bought new.

I have had Steve rebuild one for what will be my nice X, which I am sure will be just fine for my needs there. However my other X which led a hard life before I bought it, shows signs of that strain in my daily driving despite me not pushing the transmission. Which is causing me to think more about an alternative engine swap for that car.

Frustrating.
 
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Just put together one four speed and one five speed transaxle. The owner of the four speed sent along a box of new aftermarket syncros, sliders, bearings and a few transaxles for parts. The aftermarket syncros & sliders were not used as their quality and appearance IS very questionable. Bearings were OK. What ended up happening, the other four speed transaxles got canablized for parts to make one good four speed transaxle. The five speed transaxle was built out of a parts stash.

Difficulty is not obtaining replacement parts, the serious problem is quality of aftermarket parts for this transaxle which is IMO, terrible and horrid. They sort of fit, but do not expect these aftermarket parts to work as good or last as long as OEM Fiat.

As for experienced Fiat-Alfa wrencher, how many of these transaxles have been done, what is the long term results, were will the replacement parts come from, how can the parts used-work done be verified as proper?

Previously written here, take care of the transaxle in your exxe as getting OEM quality replacement parts and having it worked on properly is not going to be easy or low cost. The days of cheap-low buck exxe ownership is mostly gone.


Bernice
 
Rod Midkiff said:
I am so on the fence about doing a powertrain swap or doing the Alt x1/9 engine build. And the gearbox is a BIG part of the dream. (2k) for a great rebuild, But it can only be as good as they were when new (and from what I am hearing) that is not even possible anymore.
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Well stated Rod, I couldn't agree more. ;)
 
I finally got the transaxle out of the car and disassembled (look back to the first post for a refresher). The 3rd and 4th synchros look okay to me so I don't think they are the root cause of the grinding going into third. Here is a picture of third gear with the synchro (both are aftermarket):

Transaxle 024.JPG


I performed a test using the third gear slider. What I did was slowly push the slider into engagement with third gear and and try to rotate third at the same time. Basically what I am trying to see is how much torsional friction is created before the slide teeth engage with third gear. I performed the test with the new slider that I had been installed in the transaxle and then again with the OE part that I had replaced during the original rebuild. The test is nit that scientific and relies on "feel", but it seems to me that the original slider works better. I think it is in my best interest to buy an OE slider if I can find one.

Next I looked at the shift fork. I could not find any wear specs in the shop manual, but the shift fork has obvious wear. Here is a picture:

Transaxle 021.JPG


Here is the fifth gear fork for comparison:

Transaxle 022.JPG


I will be replacing the third fourth shift fork.

I wasn't happy with second gear either. I had replaced the syncro in my earlier rebuild, but it did not perform as well as it should. Here is picture of the inside of the synchro:

Transaxle 025.JPG


Note the bright spots which tells me that this part is not round. I bought two aftermarket synchros but one was unusable. The inner surface was too large in diameter and was worse than the old part. Here is an OE part for comparison:

Transaxle 027.JPG


Note the surface is much more uniform.

And here is the reason why I replaced one of the synchros in the first place:

Transaxle 026.JPG


So I need the following parts:

Third/fourth slider.
Third and fourth synchros (if I can find good parts).
Third/fourth shift fork.
First and second synchros.

There are some third/fourth sliders and synhcros for sale on ebay (from Italy). Does anyone know if these parts are good?

Brian
 
There are two expander bands inside the Porsche syncro. Check the condition of these bands. If they are worn, they will not aid in expanding the Porsche syncro band properly reducing the amount of friction the outer syncro band can produce to help speed match the gear to slider prior to making the gear shift transition. Other item to check is the two blocks associated with the expander band. If these are worn or have a problem this will also impede the ability of the expander bands to do their job.

The inverted Borg Warner syncro used on 1st-2nd gear can develop problems if the grooved tapered cone on the gear is worn or if the syncro ring is not Fiat per ID spec. ID slider detents and pressed steel detent caps can wear too, check this as there is more to 1st-2nd syncro than just the syncro rings.

Bernice
 
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