Third gear grind is back

Discussions like this lead me toward thoughts of a complete engine/trans swap. If these cars had any real value it would be different, and worth keeping them original. But they don't really warrant that. Actually that is one reason why I like them so much; they are cheap enough to afford doing modifications and customization without sacrificing their value. The problem is the expense of a swap is also much more than the vehicle's worth. So I guess it comes down to each owner's values and interests. Sorry, just venting frustration over one of my X's with a broken trans.
 
Which will result in a vast variety of other problems depending on the power train involved. Often not appreciated is the degree and amount of re-design, engineering, problem solving, parts sourcing, speciality fabrication and much more involved with installing and properly sorting out an alternative power train.

Some of the best examples of all that can possibly go wrong with power train swaps is found at 24 Hours of LeMons where the racer folks involved projecting their belief the OEM power train is totally and utterly inadequate resulting in the hap-hazard installation of their chosen power train.... only to discover the can-O-worms they have opened. This does not mean all alternative power train installs will fail or have problems, it is a realty check into what is truly and completely involved to do this properly and sort out the problems and difficulties that will happen. It is one thing to pull a Chevy 283, then install Chevy 350. Proper install of a completely different power train into the exxe is a very different problem project than Chevy 283 to Chevy 350.

As for cost... cost will be far more than just the cost of the alternative power train as there is far more than just the cost of the power train involved. Add to this the potential problems with the power train to be installed.

Worth of the target power train vehicle is irrelevant, it is much about interest and passion for accomplishing a speciality project. If market value is of much concern, far better to restore a moto with known and proven market value, not the exxe.


Bernice


Dr.Jeff said:
Discussions like this lead me toward thoughts of a complete engine/trans swap. If these cars had any real value it would be different, and worth keeping them original. But they don't really warrant that. Actually that is one reason why I like them so much; they are cheap enough to afford doing modifications and customization without sacrificing their value. The problem is the expense of a swap is also much more than the vehicle's worth. So I guess it comes down to each owner's values and interests. Sorry, just venting frustration over one of my X's with a broken trans.
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I understand the desire for alternate power trains. Given how common swaps have become in other cars its to be expected with the X.

For as long as I have been enjoying these cars I have expressed the opinion that much of what makes the car desirable is the drive line. The engine is much of a car's character and swaps often gut the very thing that attracts the enthusiast. I love the SOHC engine and think it fits the car's character perfectly. I like the small, light, nimble, rev-happy character. For most of my life my favorite car was my 1300 '74 X. Fitted with 40 DCNFs, a FAZA cam, light flywheel and a 4:82 final drive 5 speed it was a blast to drive. Sure, a new Honda Mini Van will out accelerate it but that's not the car's character. If I wanted exhilarating straight line performance I wouldn't have bought an X.

Certainly, an X with 200+ HP is fun. Sub 10:1 power ratios are fun. I have a car that is 9:1 now. And some day, when I have the time and space, I might do a swap in an X so I can have my own Italian SuperCar. But that's a very different car with a very different character.

For now I can still make X1/9 transmissions work pretty much as new at a price that isn't out of reason. Perhaps at some point the parts will be NLA and then I can engineer a swap kit to adapt an alternate transmission.

As Bernice noted; swaps are always more complicated and expensive than as conceived. K swaps are a fairly known quantity and they are what? $10K?
 
As far as engines go, I agree with those above, the Fiat power plants are interesting in their own nostalgic way.
I've always loved even the visual aspect of the twin cam Fiat engine. Much like the old Lotus twin cam or many early small formula race engines. But I would not bother trying to swap a twin cam into a X.
Similarly from an aesthetic perspective, I don't care for the appearance of modern engines in old cars.
I also understand the desire to maintain the 'integrity' of the car by keeping the original drivetrain. And the cost to do an engine swap is obvious (to me anyway). However if it comes to the point where the cost/availability of parts to keep the original drivetrain properly working becomes more than the car's worth (each person will have their own view of what that is), then I think it is time to start looking at the options. One option is to sell/crush the car and move on to something else. Another is to improve the reliability and performance with a different drivetrain. If your desire is to maintain the Fiat heritage, then perhaps a UnoTurbo or similar drivetrain might work. And there are other options.
I've been building modified and custom cars for over 45 years. So I view them all as just toys. And that makes them disposable if necessary. It also makes them open for conversions if desired. Whether that be building a replica Abarth or Dallara, doing a powertrain swap, creating a wild one-off custom, or whatever else you might desire.
For those that prefer a stock/original type X1/9, and are willing to spend the money to keep it that way (should things become impossible to find and overpriced), that's fine too. Just not for me. It is indeed a fun hobby.
 
Scored an NOS Third Gear and 3rd/4th Slider!
Now I can complete my spare 5 speed. Took forever to find these OE parts.
On a side note, I have a rather large bin filled with 5 speed transmission parts accumulated over the last ten years. After following the recent threads on the difficulty in finding some of these parts I plan on inspecting and bagging anything with very minimal to no wear. Kind of a winter organizational project.
 
artz1731 said:
Scored an NOS Third Gear and 3rd/4th Slider!
Now I can complete my spare 5 speed. Took forever to find these OE parts.
On a side note, I have a rather large bin filled with 5 speed transmission parts accumulated over the last ten years. After following the recent threads on the difficulty in finding some of these parts I plan on inspecting and bagging anything with very minimal to no wear. Kind of a winter organizational project.
Click to expand...
Can your reveal your source? I gave weak 2nd 3rd synchro. Thanks

Sam
 
E Bay of all places. The last two NOS sliders I found were found by patience and luck. So not really a secretive source I just have been checking two or three times a week for quite awhile.
 
I received some parts I ordered from an Italian ebay seller by the name of lineav. Here are a few pictures of the 3rd/4th synchros:

004.JPG



The synchros look good, however I noticed one small discrepancy. The following picture shows the two new synchro rings stacked on top on one another for comparison. The one on top has the small grooves on the inside surface identical to the OEM part, while the one on the bottom does not. I could not find any other difference and the friction surfaces look identical.

005.JPG


The next picture is the slider:

006.JPG


At first I thought it was identical to the OEM part, but then I realized it was identical to the part I used the first time I rebuilt the transmission.

Here are a couple of pictures of the OEM vs the part I purchased on ebay:

007.JPG

Above, note the absence of the raised ridge in the shift fork groove (OEM part on the right).

008.JPG

Above, note the machining differences (OEM part on the left this time).

Question: On all the sliders I have purchased (as well as the OEM part) there is a groove machined into the outside top surface that I have indicated in the following picture. This groove is only on one side. What is the purpose of the groove and does it go towards 3rd or 4th?

006B.jpg


Regards,

Brian
 
beezee said:
and the transmission is working great
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Brian, seems like I recall you saying that a time or two before?? :D Only joking, I trust this time the parts are good and will continue to work well. Please keep us informed. Once you have proven what components are good and what ones are not, then I will order all the stuff I need to rebuild two gearboxes. ;)
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Brian, seems like I recall you saying that a time or two before?? :D Only joking, I trust this time the parts are good and will continue to work well. Please keep us informed. Once you have proven what components are good and what ones are not, then I will order all the stuff I need to rebuild two gearboxes. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know..., and I haven't even shifted past third yet. Sorta like the guy who is getting ready to marry for the third time saying "this is the one". I guess hope springs eternal.

Brian
 
Update: I've had the car out three times now and the transmission is shifting perfectly. It leaks a couple of drops of oil over the course of a few days (despite all new gaskets and seals), but other than that I'm quite pleased with it.

Brian
 
I think that's a new record; three outings without a trans incident. :D
Great news Brian. One of the worst feelings is when you finally finish a major repair, finally get everything back together, and go for the first test drive - only to discover it is not right. Not that I would know, but I've heard that's true. :rolleyes: Keep us posted.
 
Rupunzell said:
This is the reality and must do for any gear box with Porsche Syncros. They MUST have some time to sync before trying to engage the alternate gear. If not the Porsche syncro will be destroyed in short time. Read the story below, all applies to the exxe gear box.
http://blog.dietersmotorsports.com/?page_id=231
"Sometimes the problem is not a loaned car at all, but a car being driven by a misinformed owner. I had a friend of a friend bring a 993S in for me to look at because he said it made a bad grinding noise. He said the noise happened when he shifted the car from first to second and from second to third. After a very thorough test drive I could find no shifting problems with the car. As a matter of fact, this 32,000 mile 993S was like a new car in every way. So when he came to pick up the car we went for a test drive together with him at the wheel. After the first run through the gears it became apparent what the problem with the transmission was. The driver was shifting the car so fast that the synchros could not possibly do the job they were being asked to do. “How fast?” you ask. So fast that his hand started two inches below the shifter in second gear and got a running start towards the knob in making the 2-3 shift … (I know … almost brings a tear to your eye.)

After I screamed “STOP!” we switched seating positions and I showed him the “two finger rule”—how the car should be shifted using no more effort than can be applied with two fingers on the shift knob. It shifted perfectly without grinding or any other issues. This was his first Porsche and he had been told by a “friend” who knows all about Porsches (but had never actually owned one) that this was how a Porsche was meant to be shifted. I explained how a synchro works and he then understood the “what and whys” of the two finger rule. Now for a bit of what I told him.

“Synchro” is short for synchronizer. The official definition is “to cause to go on, move, operate, work, etc., at the same rate and exactly together”. That is precisely what it does. It makes gears spinning at different speeds match their rotation so they can smoothly engage. It does this with what looks like “Dog teeth” or engagement teeth. These are rings of pointy teeth that engage the gear to the shaft (like intertwining fingers as you bring your hands together). When gears grind, it is these dog teeth coming together, but not at the same speed. The sliders are, well, sliders that move along the input/output shafts. They engage power from the gear to the appropriate shaft."



Bernice
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Thanks for this “two-finger” message. We too suffered the ‘74’s grinding third gear EVERY time until investigating what the problem could be. While we found there was a design problem which caused this, the solution is to find third gear slowly, with a bit of a pause before engagement. After getting used to this, our ‘grinds’ only happen about 15% of the time. While two fingers aren’t quite enough, a gentle push is all that’s needed to avoid the nastiness. :)
 
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tvmaster said:
Thanks for this “two-finger” message. We too suffered the ‘74’s grinding third gear EVERY time until investigating what the problem could be. While we found there was a design problem which caused this, the solution is very much to find third gear slowly, with a bit of a pause before engagement. After getting used to this, our ‘grinds’ only happen about 15% of the time. While two fingers aren’t quite enough, a gentle push is all that’s needed to avoid the nastiness. :)
Click to expand...

The design problem is innate to the design of Porsche syncros. They have a required engagement time which is not negotiable and will slow self-destruct if increased force is applied with the belief more force speeds up the gear change cycle.

Gentle push, allow time for the syncros to do their job. More force will slowly destroy parts with slower gear change.


Bernice
 
Speaking of shifting habits. The other day I was driving someone else's car, one I normally wouldn't be driving, and it reminded me how much the overall layout of the interior (ergonomics) can impact the driver's habits regarding the gear shifter. For example this car has a center console/armrest that invites the driver to rest their right elbow on it for a comfortable driving with the seating design. And with the right elbow on the center armrest, your hand naturally falls right where the shift knob is located. So without any conscious effort I found myself resting my right hand on the gear knob all the time I was driving. Something that isn't good for the trans internals. Had things been designed a little different (ergonomically) that would not have been the case; possibly change the position or dimensions of the armrest, or the location of the gear knob, or the general relationship of the seats, steering wheel, and other controls. Any of which would make my hand naturally fall elsewhere. However if another driver was in the same car, this might all be different - different driver/vehicle interface.
 
Weight/mass of the entire shifting mechanicals has an effect on how the shifter and shifter feels. Trying to move around all that weight slows movements down, dampens the connection between driver's hand to gear box and...

These are all the often dis-regarded details of moto design, ergonomics related to driver feel of any moto.


Bernice
 
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