Third gear grind is back

I should engrave this in gearknob with laser, so if ever again will let someone try my x to drive.

This happened : I told that never ever put in first before stop and switch into third very slowly.

What happened after, don’t know short memory or what but fast throw into third with grind ~60km/h and then braking into corner with revmatching into first.
These sounds were so so I can’t describe, so not to give ever anyone x for a testdrive again even a person You trust most about hard driving habits
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Rupunzell said:
The design problem is innate to the design of Porsche syncros. They have a required engagement time which is not negotiable and will slow self-destruct if increased force is applied with the belief more force speeds up the gear change cycle.

Gentle push, allow time for the syncros to do their job. More force will slowly destroy parts with slower gear change.


Bernice
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Is the ‘79-’87 five speed the same, or is it only the four speed that suffers?
 
tvmaster said:
Is the ‘79-’87 five speed the same, or is it only the four speed that suffers?
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All of them can suffer this. However if you are a good driver, follow the two fingers to shift rule and take your time to shift, the transmission will last a long time.

As it is a gutless wonder in any case, speed shifting isn’t going to gain you anything in terms of gettin up to speed.
 
tvmaster said:
Is the ‘79-’87 five speed the same, or is it only the four speed that suffers?
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They ALL do much the same including the Porsche version and many other gear boxes with Porsche syncros...

Difference with the X1/9, Porsche folks and owners of market status brands often tolerate this and accept what has been designed in. With the Fiat, it is considered ~junk~ and crappy Italian. Much about perception and marketing.


Bernice
 
"Dog drive" non-synchro gear box.. shifts without clutch if done properly with a quicker gear change.

Straight cut gears might not be agreeable with more than a few road & street moto folks,



Bernice
 
tvmaster said:
Is the ‘79-’87 five speed the same, or is it only the four speed that suffers?
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All X1/9s (both 4 and 5 speeds) use Porsche type synchros on 3rd, 4th (and 5th). Porsche type synchros are not very durable and are subject to wear of the synchro, its slider and the gear's engagement teeth. Sympathetic use will go a long way toward maximizing their useful life. That and using Redline MTL and changing it regularly.

As Bernice noted, Porsche owners have tolerated their crappy gearboxes for decades without so much as a whimper. I once had a Porsche owner laugh at me when I mentioned the X1/9's transmission was somewhat fragile. I responded that the problem was primarily due to the crappy Porsche synchro design it used. ;)
 
tvmaster said:
And the manual states:

"Transmission and axle 3.15 2.85 3 1/3 qts. SAE 90 (not EP) containing anti-wear additives"

Redline MTL seems to come in different flavors - which makes the service manual happy, plain old MTL? The SAE 90 part doesn't matter now, aka MTL-90?

This is what we use? https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-50205-75W80-GL-4/dp/B002INJ69I/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyN-DBhCDARIsAFOELTlEh4Yg_OcBk4tZnja1OdFwXq798SziNFs8udan_EIlibUMe2UXeDIaArOlEALw_wcB&hvadid=446990199801&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1014217&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1949433047431361874&hvtargid=kwd-1982719522&hydadcr=19709_12125671&keywords=redline+mtl&qid=1618531306&refinements=p_85:2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sr=8-2
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Either one is fine; I just filled my transaxle with MTL a few weeks ago. If you look up Steve Hoelscher's posts on the subject, you'll see him suggesting MTL for most uses and most climates. BTW, the 90 weight alternative is called MT-90, not MTL-90.

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kmead said:
All of them can suffer this. However if you are a good driver, follow the two fingers to shift rule and take your time to shift, the transmission will last a long time.

As it is a gutless wonder in any case, speed shifting isn’t going to gain you anything in terms of gettin up to speed.
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Would the VW Karmann Ghia be in the group of cars which use this transmission? I was watching Wheeler Dealers episode about an American, red Ghia, and the third-gear grind was one of the things that had to be addressed. Funny, they didn't address mine. lol. VW, Porsche, FIAT?
 
No, this is a Fiat transmission. Does it grind when upshifting from second to third? Or downshifting from 4th to 3rd.
Grinding during shifts means:
- you are shifting too quickly
- synchro parts are worn in the transmission
- if there is resistance in selecting any forward gear, your clutch may need adjusting.
- you could benefit from a private lesson on double declutching
If your transaxle does not have bearing noise, your transaxle may last for another 100,000 miles if you shift more carefully.
All of the above comments apply to any manual transmission.
 
ng_randolph said:
Either one is fine; I just filled my transaxle with MTL a few weeks ago. If you look up Steve Hoelscher's posts on the subject, you'll see him suggesting MTL for most uses and most climates. BTW, the 90 weight alternative is called MT-90, not MTL-90.

View attachment 46158
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For reference, there are several MT-XXX products but only one identified as "MTL".

I am quite interested in testing the MT-LV product. Its new and quite interesting.

Please note: Shockproof is not listed under the category for "manual transmissions". It is specifically described as an EP (Extreme Pressure) agent. Thus it should never be used in a manual transmission.
 
johnph said:
No, this is a Fiat transmission. Does it grind when upshifting from second to third? Or downshifting from 4th to 3rd.
Grinding during shifts means:
- you are shifting too quickly
- synchro parts are worn in the transmission
- if there is resistance in selecting any forward gear, your clutch may need adjusting.
- you could benefit from a private lesson on double declutching
If your transaxle does not have bearing noise, your transaxle may last for another 100,000 miles if you shift more carefully.
All of the above comments apply to any manual transmission.
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So the FIAT transmissions AREN’T modeled after the Porsche’s? I thought I read here somewhere there were similarities. I don’t shift too quickly, nor need a double-clutching lesson, but thanks anyway. Grinding occasionally appears from 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to third, but only occasionally when double clutching very slowly. So yes, there are minor issues. If you hammer it, it always grinds.
But that’s mine. I was talking about how Mike Brewer was pounding this Karmann Ghia. And that what he was describing was identical to these similar symptoms. VW. Similar to Porsche? Similar to FIAT?
 
tvmaster said:
So the FIAT transmissions AREN’T modeled after the Porsche’s? I thought I read here somewhere there were similarities. I don’t shift too quickly, nor need a double-clutching lesson, but thanks anyway. Grinding occasionally appears from 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to third, but only occasionally when double clutching very slowly. So yes, there are minor issues. If you hammer it, it always grinds.
But that’s mine. I was talking about how Mike Brewer was pounding this Karmann Ghia. And that what he was describing was identical to these similar symptoms. VW. Similar to Porsche? Similar to FIAT?
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They use a Porsche design for the syncromesh system. This is the element which engages the next gear as you shift so it doesn’t grind. What happens over time is the syncro wears and no longer brings the next gear to the same speed as you shift and you get a small grind. This excaberates the wear on both the syncro and the gear.

The Porsche design was quite popular at the time as it allowed a reduction in size of the transmission assembly compared to other, earlier synchronizer systems.

The critical things are: do not rush your shifts and do no use a lot of force. I believe it was Fangio who espoused using just your thumb and index finger to grasp the shift knob as it limits the force you can apply. The third thing is never rest your hand on the shifter unless actually shifting, the weight of your hand and arm can apply pressure to the shift mechanism and cause wear on the syncro of the engaged gear.
 
I found a full roll / sleeve of Original Goetze synchros a few weeks ago, they had been mis-labelled as alfa romeo (possibly by me) and in with the Alfa parts, but when I took out the box to sell a set, I found one sleeve/roll are 7.600mm wide, so too narrow for an alfa romeo transmission.

Goetze list the dimensions as being 77.000mm / 69.200mm / 7.600mm, and they have the machined grooves to the inside. I also found a roll of the same dimension, but I believe the Goetze description on the packaging in German says they are molybdenum coated, and they bear the distinctive yellow stripe that the alfa moly coated type have to distinguish them from "regular" synchros as well. I think these are Fiat transmission parts but I'll check fitment when I put my lemons trans together

Now I just need to find a good source for some 3/4 sliding hubs. (4366610) this seems to be the most difficult to find part in a quality component, fortunately it also suits the later "top change" C513 and C510 transmissions, so are still available genuine (but kind of pricey)

1/2 synchro ring is the same part used in the 131 transmission so you can find them if you look (4375691)
I believe this is the same as Alfa romeo 164 and Lancia's Delta (7629335) but have yet to 100% confrim this.

1/2 sliding hubs are 5932930 and available NOS genuine part

Alfa romeo rear wheel drive transmissions use porsche type synchros too, for racing use they molybdenum coated them. You don't hear Alfa owners (well apart from alfetta owners) complaining about the shift on their cars... if the parts are worn and need rebuilding they also have the issue of finding quality replacements...

SteveC
 
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kmead said:
They use a Porsche design for the syncromesh system. This is the element which engages the next gear as you shift so it doesn’t grind. What happens over time is the syncro wears and no longer brings the next gear to the same speed as you shift and you get a small grind. This excaberates the wear on both the syncro and the gear.

The Porsche design was quite popular at the time as it allowed a reduction in size of the transmission assembly compared to other, earlier synchronizer systems.

The critical things are: do not rush your shifts and do no use a lot of force. I believe it was Fangio who espoused using just your thumb and index finger to grasp the shift knob as it limits the force you can apply. The third thing is never rest your hand on the shifter unless actually shifting, the weight of your hand and arm can apply pressure to the shift mechanism and cause wear on the syncro of the engaged gear.
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Are you talking about the Karmann Ghia?
 
tvmaster said:
Are you talking about the Karmann Ghia?
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no he's talking about the X19 transmission. It (and many other transmissions apart from porsche and VW) use what's kown as a porsche synchro ring, as it was designed originally by Ferry Porsche, the synchro naming has nothing to do with the brand name or type of vehicle made by the VW/audi group, simply the designer / inventor (he probably holds the patent)

SteveC
 
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