Timing Keeps Slipping

Tavalin

Tavalin

Florida Mike (again)
Recently, the 1986 X1/9 starting to sputter and white smoke after a five minute idol.
I checked the timing the timing was way off, + by a lot. I reset the timing back to +10. I drove the X and it drove fine for a few miles and again it started acting up, sputtering, no power and smoking.
Could this be because of bad gas? Or, the timing belt (which was changed out prior to me owning the X)???
Don’t know what to do and at the end of my rope right now.
This did all start after I filled up with 89 octane non-ethanol gas.
Any suggestions would be greatly appropriated.
Thanks,
Mike
 
The only ways the timing could change is if the belt was so loose it jumped or if the distributor wasn’t properly bolted down. There isn’t much else that would allow it to float.
 
Then it has to be the gas then. I hope it will be alright. I might have to change out the fuel filter and add a pre-fuel pump filter as well.
Thanks,
Mike
 
I run the cheapest gas Costco sells in mine with no issues. My car is stock, I don’t know about yours.

White smoke suggests something other than gas. Is the fan working? Did it overheat?

How far off was the timing?
 
Tavalin said:
Then it has to be the gas then. I hope it will be alright. I might have to change out the fuel filter and add a pre-fuel pump filter as well.
Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...
Using real gas will not move the timing. That is something mechanical. As Karl said, the belt may be jumping or missing teeth. The dizzy could be loose.
 
White smoke generally means water and/or coolant. As Karl asked, how far off was the timing and was it advanced or retarded? My guess is that somehow it was way advanced, you got some detonation, and blew out the head gasket.
 
I agree the smoke and the changes in timing might be two different issues (e.g. head gasket and dizzy issue).

Checking for a head gasket failure can be done with a leak down tester.

I assume you are referring to ignition timing and not cam timing? If the ignition timing is changing, I doubt it would be due to the timing belt slipping as that would likely change the cam timing as well (if it loose enough to slip at the aux shaft). However I have noticed engines with long term leaking front seals will collect a lot of grime all around the pulley cogs, tensioner, belt, etc and might cause the timing belt to jump. So double check your cam timing to see if it is still right. Make sure the threads on the distributor anchor stud are good all the way down so the nut is getting the clamp tight. One of mine has buggered threads and the nut feels tight before the clamp is fully secured. Also check to see if the rotor moves by hand while the engine is off (i.e. broken distributor parts).
 
The timing was way advanced. So something wrong with the head gasket, maybe. I will have to check that. The temp was about 190... enough to kick on the fans. No overheating. After a few miles the X settles down and runs right. Then back to the same when I start it back up again.
I hope it is nothing too serious. Don’t have the time for something like that.
I will check and get back everyone.
Thanks for the advise on what to check out.
Mike
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
An indicator of a blown head gasket can sometimes be combustion pressure getting into the cooling system. Let it cool down fully, open the cap on the expansion tank, start the car and look for bubbling in the expansion tank.
This block tester loaner tool is available at AutoZone, checks for the combustion gasses that make the bubbling.
AutoZone also has a standard compression test loaner tool, too, but not a leakdown tester.
Click to expand...
Dan,
Thank you... unfortunately, I am going to have to place this on hold for a couple of weeks, family stuff.
After thinking about everything I have done on the X1/9, it probably is a blown head gasket. I remember that the X wouldn’t go over 4500 rpms until I changed the fuel injectors. Makes since with the higher compression that something would give out.
If it is a blown head gasket then I might have to rethink my position with regards to the X. I am old and back issues. I am going to do as much as I can for my son but I have limits both physically and financially. Oliver also takes up a great portion of our time and I hate to see any car just sit.
I will do little troubleshooting after work but other than that I just don’t have the time.

This is just perfect since I just signed up for the St. Armands Car Show September 28, Sponsored by the Florida Ferrari Club. It was going to be special. Oh well, the life with a Fiat.
Mike
 
Okay, question:
If I have to go that deep into the engine, should I just purchase a rebuild kit or just change out the gasket that failed?
There are two kits available that I have found, a 10 bolt and a 15 bolt for 1500cc. Don’t know what the difference is and what I have.
I am thinking a rebuild would be better than just replacing one part and waiting for the rest to fail and have to do a complete tear down again.
Any thoughts and knowing what I have and what I should do?
Mike
 
Tavalin said:
Okay, question:
If I have to go that deep into the engine, should I just purchase a rebuild kit or just change out the gasket that failed?
There are two kits available that I have found, a 10 bolt and a 15 bolt for 1500cc. Don’t know what the difference is and what I have.
I am thinking a rebuild would be better than just replacing one part and waiting for the rest to fail and have to do a complete tear down again.
Any thoughts and knowing what I have and what I should do?
Mike
Click to expand...
The 14-bolt head as four smaller bolts more or less in between the five larger ones running along the oil pump side of the motor. It will be pretty clear which you have once you know what to look for, and likely someone here can post a picture.

But we’re getting ahead of ourselves here... first, figure out why the timing went bad. If the belt jumped, the cam timing mark will no longer line up at TDC (but remember that the crank turns twice for every turn of cam, so if the cam looks 180 degrees out, give the crank a full turn and check again). If the cam timing is good, then either the distributor moved because it wasn’t properly bolted down (most likely) or something is bad wrong inside the distributor (long shot).

Then check compression and leak down to see if you have a head gasket problem or something more serious. Only after you have confirmed that the head has to come off do you order the gasket, unless you want to keep on3 on the shelf.
 
Tavalin said:
After thinking about everything I have done on the X1/9, it probably is a blown head gasket.
Click to expand...

I disagree. As both Karl & JimD have already stated,

"The only ways the timing could change is if the belt was so loose it jumped or if the distributor wasn’t properly bolted down. There isn’t much else that would allow it to float."

"...That is something mechanical. As Karl said, the belt may be jumping or missing teeth. The dizzy could be loose."

I'll add to the pile-on by repeating what they've said: a blown head gasket is not going to physically alter the timing like this, nor would bad gasoline. A loose timing belt (tensioner), a worn or stripped timing belt or an extremely worn camshaft pulley or auxilliary shaft pulley can, as could a loose distributor clamp. Extreme worst-case scenario could be a worn crank pulley or a sheared crank pulley key (but highly unlikely).

Instead of needlessly tearing apart your engine chasing ghosts, check & recheck the items noted above, particularly the timing belt itself. These are pretty much the only things that would allow timing to mechanically change as you've mentioned.
 
Is it still blowing white smoke at startup and smells sweet when running (ie burned antifreeze)? As was pointed out it is pretty normal for a blown head gasket to introduce exhaust gases into the coolant which can be tested for.

Indeed before you jump onto the slippery slope, check the basics.

Is the engine ignition timing correct now? Has it moved since you changed it?

Is the engine timing correct meaning the pistons to valves etc?

A head gasket while involved from a project standpoint isn’t as bad as many other jobs on the car.

The head gasket set is generally year based unless your car has had the engine replaced. The 14 bolt head was around 1985 but can be counted easily. If there are four small smaller bolts alongside the spark plugs (modified per Jeff Stich’s image) it is a 14 bolt head, if it doesn’t it is 10.

My ‘85 has a 10 bolt head, my ‘87 has 14.

I don’t recall what year your car is but see that it has all black trim which would suggest a late 85 as mine has mix of black and bright chrome (funny transitions).

In any case it isn’t the end of the world and likely well within your ability despite your age...
 
Last edited:
Tavalin said:
Dan,
Thank you... unfortunately, I am going to have to place this on hold for a couple of weeks, family stuff.
After thinking about everything I have done on the X1/9, it probably is a blown head gasket. I remember that the X wouldn’t go over 4500 rpms until I changed the fuel injectors. Makes since with the higher compression that something would give out.
If it is a blown head gasket then I might have to rethink my position with regards to the X. I am old and back issues. I am going to do as much as I can for my son but I have limits both physically and financially. Oliver also takes up a great portion of our time and I hate to see any car just sit.
I will do little troubleshooting after work but other than that I just don’t have the time.

This is just perfect since I just signed up for the St. Armands Car Show September 28, Sponsored by the Florida Ferrari Club. It was going to be special. Oh well, the life with a Fiat.
Mike
Click to expand...

IMO the possible head gasket issue was an effect of the problem, not the cause of the original problem. The original problem as Jeff noted is the crazy advanced timing. As mentioned you would want to track that down first.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say in addition to whatever caused the original timing problem, there is now also a head gasket problem. Many of the things that could have gone wrong to cause the timing problem would also need to be removed and attended to/replaced to do the head gasket, so there is the small consolation of the overlapping task list.

Again assuming head gasket, just because a head gasket lets go does not necessarily mean you are in for a total engine overhaul. Indeed, if just the head gasket went and nothing else within the engine is worse for wear then you would need to have the head checked for flatness (many but not all conditions that cause head gaskets to go also warp the head out of spec) and machined if necessary, then install back on the engine with a top end gasket kit. Depending upon what year your car is, you would need to address (or not) the replacement head bolt issue, as you are not supposed to re-use the so-called "stretch" bolts.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, have you checked the dipstick to see if it looks like oil or the dreaded "milkshake?"
 
Jeff Stich said:
I disagree. As both Karl & JimD have already stated,

"The only ways the timing could change is if the belt was so loose it jumped or if the distributor wasn’t properly bolted down. There isn’t much else that would allow it to float."

"...That is something mechanical. As Karl said, the belt may be jumping or missing teeth. The dizzy could be loose."

I'll add to the pile-on by repeating what they've said: a blown head gasket is not going to physically alter the timing like this, nor would bad gasoline. A loose timing belt (tensioner), a worn or stripped timing belt or an extremely worn camshaft pulley or auxilliary shaft pulley can, as could a loose distributor clamp. Extreme worst-case scenario could be a worn crank pulley or a sheared crank pulley key (but highly unlikely).

Instead of needlessly tearing apart your engine chasing ghosts, check & recheck the items noted above, particularly the timing belt itself. These are pretty much the only things that would allow timing to mechanically change as you've mentioned.
Click to expand...
Jeff,
This all makes sense. Start checking until something found. The more you guys chime in the more and more things start to click on what I should do first. I will check the cam and crank to see if the timing moved that way first then the distributor. The easy stuff first then on to the harder stuff.
I forgot where/how to check the crank but I am sure I will remember when I look for it. I believe it is on top so I just need my timing light and start looking.
I have the timing set back to +10 again at the cam. Now to check that setting at the crank.
I have a timing belt but never changed it because the PO stated the one on it was new. That was 4 years ago.
I do need to check the tensioner. There is problem. When I attempted to take off the two piece cover and I can only take off the top part. The bottom part has a long bolt that just turns and does not come out. I will try harder this time. If there is something I can do to get that sucker out that advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and will update on my endeavor soon.
Mike
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
IMO the possible head gasket issue was an effect of the problem, not the cause of the original problem. The original problem as Jeff noted is the crazy advanced timing. As mentioned you would want to track that down first.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say in addition to whatever caused the original timing problem, there is now also a head gasket problem. Many of the things that could have gone wrong to cause the timing problem would also need to be removed and attended to/replaced to do the head gasket, so there is the small consolation of the overlapping task list.

Again assuming head gasket, just because a head gasket lets go does not necessarily mean you are in for a total engine overhaul. Indeed, if just the head gasket went and nothing else within the engine is worse for wear then you would need to have the head checked for flatness (many but not all conditions that cause head gaskets to go also warp the head out of spec) and machined if necessary, then install back on the engine with a top end gasket kit. Depending upon what year your car is, you would need to address (or not) the replacement head bolt issue, as you are not supposed to re-use the so-called "stretch" bolts.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, have you checked the dipstick to see if it looks like oil or the dreaded "milkshake?"
Click to expand...
Dan,
That makes total sense. So plan on a head gasket replacement. However, find out why the timing is slipping.
I am going for a tensioner and belt plus head gasket.
We shall see. I have a lot of advise so I am now more confident in troubleshooting and discovering the root cause and the secondary effects cause from the root.
I hope to have this done prior to the big show September 28. Already paid and planned the one hour trip.
We shall see,
Mike

PS: anyone coming to Tampa this month? Just asking...lol
 
Tavalin said:
The timing was way advanced. So something wrong with the head gasket, maybe. I will have to check that. The temp was about 190... enough to kick on the fans. No overheating. After a few miles the X settles down and runs right. Then back to the same when I start it back up again.
I hope it is nothing too serious. Don’t have the time for something like that.
I will check and get back everyone.
Thanks for the advise on what to check out.
Mike
Click to expand...

There's a simple check for a head gasket or cracked head. When you start it cold and it misfires shut it down before the problem clears. Pull the plugs and check them for antifreeze on the electrodes. Many times it's the antifreeze causing the miss. This doesn't always work, but it's simple enough to try.
 
The X1/9 build date is 2/86. I see four large bolts above the spark plugs. I am not seeing the four small bolts.
Well, going to start a serious troubleshooting effort next week. If it is the tensioner and the head gasket that is under $100.00 so not that bad. Looks like more time than money. The X is set right in the garage so I can get to both sides with no problem. I don’t have to pull the engine... I hope. Maybe will be easy but not peasy...
Thanks and will take pics and vent and update on my progress soon.
Mike
 
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