Timing Keeps Slipping

[fiatfactory]

Vacuum hose to the distributor disconnected, that's it, you found the cause of your "timing slipping" as it's highly likely during your last round of work on the car (engine mount / speedo cable etc) that you accidentally disconnected the hose, and that's what caused the change in idle speed and how the car ran... zip up the job with the timing belt (which can't hurt having a new one on there if you take care before you turn the motor over) and forget about head gasket issues, who ever suggested it was a head gasket to start with gave bad advice.

SteveC

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

Vacuum hose to the distributor disconnected, that's it, you found the cause of your "timing slipping" as it's highly likely during your last round of work on the car (engine mount / speedo cable etc) that you accidentally disconnected the hose, and that's what caused the change in idle speed and how the car ran... zip up the job with the timing belt (which can't hurt having a new one on there if you take care before you turn the motor over) and forget about head gasket issues, who ever suggested it was a head gasket to start with gave bad advice.

SteveC

I thought that if timing went waaay advanced and created detonation, then the other symptom that hasn't been cleared up yet, the heavy white smoke, could possibly be caused by a head gasket. There was no suggestion that it was a head gasket problem to start with, just that a head gasket problem could be one possible result of timing going waaay advanced and then white smoke.

 

[fiatfactory]

but Mike's description didn't actually include detonation as a symptom, his description was "spluttering"

someone not as versed or familiar with ignition timing saying + a lot doesn't necessarily mean the timing went advanced ... Mike could easily have that backwards.

Lack of power and spluttering could easily have been well retarded... well advanced and the engine often "baulks" when you try to start it as the ignition is happening way early... retarded would also cause the exhaust to get a lot hotter due to the late ignition too, which could explain the white smoke... which isn't a very definitive symptom at the best of times anyway.

To me it sounds like the timing MAY have been set too far retarded initially, perhaps due to setting the static idle timing with the vacuum hose still connected and supplying some "pull" on the diaphragm... when the vac hose got disconnected, the timing would have gone well retarded ... it's really the only explanation to the scenario described as we all know the timing doesn't just slip.

SteveC

 

[Tavalin]

Vacuum hose to the distributor disconnected, that's it, you found the cause of your "timing slipping" as it's highly likely during your last round of work on the car (engine mount / speedo cable etc) that you accidentally disconnected the hose, and that's what caused the change in idle speed and how the car ran... zip up the job with the timing belt (which can't hurt having a new one on there if you take care before you turn the motor over) and forget about head gasket issues, who ever suggested it was a head gasket to start with gave bad advice.

SteveC

SteveC, that vacuum hose has never been connected. I have pics from when I originally purchased the X of the distributor so I thought nothing went there. What I didn’t know is that there was a disconnected hose. Found it.

Now, I am going to check for clogs and put on the belt... replace the speedo cable and all should be well.
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

I did mention the timing was advanced in an earlier post and backfiring. However, when I finally checked the crank timing with the cam set at TDC the crank was “retarded” by about 5 degrees. I only was going off the distributor when I had to reset the timing.

SteveC, I think you are right concerning the white smoke. I decided not to go the head gasket route even though my two gear heads wanted me to. Thanks for the advise.

Folks here were just responding to my earlier posts and trying to help. My ignorance gets in the way sometimes and I apologize for that.
Thanks everyone for helping me. Gary is getting very antsy to have his X1/9 running again so I am out there in the garage trying to learn and get it done correctly.

Plus, we have the car show coming up in about a month.

Wish me luck and someone, please stop time for about a week so I can get this done...
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

Update, I was able to replace the timing belt and the speedo cable. When I went to start the X it wouldn’t start. Looked at the timing again and the cam and crank are off, way off. I probably moved the crank trying to get the belt on.
Now, going to take a break and hit it again next Saturday. Now I know how to do it and how to keep the tensioner back (metal clip my wife uses for chip bags) and an open end wrench kept it all the way back. Very nice...

Anyway, going to rest and be with family.
Thanks for helping and see ya next week.
Mike

 

[EricH]

Update, I was able to replace the timing belt and the speedo cable. When I went to start the X it wouldn’t start. Looked at the timing again and the cam and crank are off, way off. I probably moved the crank trying to get the belt on.

Once you have the crank at TDC you want put the transmission in top gear and set the parking brake (and chock a rear wheel if you don’t trust your parking brake). That will lock the crank so it can’t turn.

 

[Tavalin]

Once you have the crank at TDC you want put the transmission in top gear and set the parking brake (and chock a rear wheel if you don’t trust your parking brake). That will lock the crank so it can’t turn.

EricH,
I have it on jack stands right now. Replaced the speedo cable while working on it.
I will put it in gear. Something I didn’t do. Parking brake is on. Maybe the flywheel was 180 out. Something I thought I checked. I like using that because it has the degrees stamped on it. Easy to read.
Wished I could get one of my friends over to help. One has his Beemer torn apart and the other is having his new ECU tuned (only to 420whp).
I am trying but need to learn more.
Mike

 

[kmead]

We all learn by doing. You are doing it so good on you.

Don’t forget to verify on the flywheel end

 

[Tavalin]

The funny thing is that I clean stuff as I go so it takes longer for me to fix what is wrong. The speedo cable was the worst and took longer than the timing belt to install. Then, I scrubbed the years of road dirt and grime off of the underneath the engine and suspension while there. And sanded and painted the bracket that the timing belt is behind under the pulley.
I have to clean for some reason. 33+ years of dirt and grime is hard to take off...lol.
Now, another funny, not-so funny. I threw my back out doing the speedo cable. I hope I will be good for next Saturday’s attempt.

Man, these cars are hard on the body. Maybe I need to take up drinking wine like the Italians to make it all better.
Mike

P.S. If there are any Fiat gear heads near Tampa... I need your help!!!

 

[kmead]

Cleaning it as you go is a good thing to do. The amount of grime on my 87 was (is?) amazing. Now looking into my 85 I am seeing more and more guck all over the engine, time to get the pressure washer going on that car...

A little vino to loosen you up might not be a bad way to go.

 

[Tavalin]

Okay... hurricane on the way so I needed to get the X running so I can move it out from under the attic stairs so I can get to my storm shutters if I need to.
So... I attempted to set the timing again. As you will see from the pics I attached below that I had everything perfect... the flywheel, crank, cam and rotor.
The X run like crap. Just like it did when it was 180 degrees out. Shut down the engine and took the distributor cap off and everything looks set, flywheel, crank, cam and the rotor. Then I remember that the flywheel used to be marked at 180 degrees out. I am thinking that I was using that old white mark.
Is there a mark in the flywheel that shows TDC?
Wound up pushing the X out of the way and into its normal spot.
I will attack this again after the storm.
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

After looking closer at the pic of the flywheel I notice a small dimple on the flywheel. That should be the timing setting. Someone painted it too. I do.know why it ran mike crap and now will not run at all.
Going to wait until after the storm then hit it again.
Also, I need to check all the vacuum hoses and ensure they are in their proper places.
So much to do and so little time.
Mike

 

[kmead]

I hope the storm isn’t too aggressive in your neck of the woods. Better to be over prepared than suffer major damage to your home. A few hours or days of preparation could save you months of frustration.

When you go back to it, the crank and flywheel dot should be at 0° not 10 when you set things up. This way all pointers will line up as a 0 starting point. Ignition timing is a very different thing and is set and verified later once the engine is started. If you put the rotor at #4 as I showed it will at the very least start and allow you to set the timing properly.

Karl

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

The dot on the flywheel and the hash marks on the bell housing are considered to be much more accurate than the hash mark on the crank pulley and the sheet metal pointer fastened to the front seal carrier plate, but with an "asterisk"----only if the flywheel has not been reinstalled 180 degrees out.

There is an indicator mark that is not subject to installation "scatter" or mis-installation: the timing mark that is cast into the front seal carrier that is only visible when the crank pulley is removed. See this thread for good pix:
https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/tdc-mark-on-timing-belt-crank-pulley.34197/

 

[Tavalin]

I hope the storm isn’t too aggressive in your neck of the woods. Better to be over prepared than suffer major damage to your home. A few hours or days of preparation could save you months of frustration.

When you go back to it, the crank and flywheel dot should be at 0° not 10 when you set things up. This way all pointers will line up as a 0 starting point. Ignition timing is a very different thing and is set and verified later once the engine is started. If you put the rotor at #4 as I showed it will at the very least start and allow you to set the timing properly.

Karl

Karl,
Everything showed TDC. I will recheck after Dorian passes. Wished I knew what I was doing.
I remember seeing something that had all the vacuum hoses and where they went. I used that years ago when I first got the X to put stuff back together. Maybe the Bosch L-Jettronic manual or something. I want to make sure all of that is buttoned up.
Thanks for the well wishes and going to get the storm shutters out just in case.
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

Does the tensioner pulley go on one way? Like is the a front and back to it? I discovered the tensioner pulley is not turning when I tighten down the center bolt. If I loosen the bolt then antifreeze drips out.
Is the a washer that is supposed to be behind the pulley? I installed the new one exactly like the old but that doesn’t mean anything.
Mike

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

Does the tensioner pulley go on one way? Like is the a front and back to it? I discovered the tensioner pulley is not turning when I tighten down the center bolt. If I loosen the bolt then antifreeze drips out.
Is the a washer that is supposed to be behind the pulley? I installed the new one exactly like the old but that doesn’t mean anything.
Mike

IIRC the fastening parts for the tensioner beraring consist of the usual big nut, split lock washer, flat washer, and then a special shoulder washer that is flat on the side that butts up against the previously mentioned flat washer, and on the other side has a shoulder that fits into the donut hole of the bearing. I don't think the bearing has a specific front and back, and I don't recall any kind of washer or spacer that spaces the bearing out from the cast pivot arm.

And it's not uncommon to have an antifreeze drip when you loosen the big nut, as the other end of that stud screws into the water jacket cover plate on the pulley end of the engine. Most of the time when you button everything back up, everything is drawn up tight and the drip will stop. If it does not stop, take off the bearing and the pivot arm, temporarily double nut the stud, loosen it a few turns (but not too many!), apply some Permatex white teflon thread sealer on the threads, and tighten it up using the double nut. Remove double nut and re-assemble normally.

 

[Tavalin]

IIRC the fastening parts for the tensioner beraring consist of the usual big nut, split lock washer, flat washer, and then a special shoulder washer that is flat on the side that butts up against the previously mentioned flat washer, and on the other side has a shoulder that fits into the donut hole of the bearing. I don't think the bearing has a specific front and back, and I don't recall any kind of washer or spacer that spaces the bearing out from the cast pivot arm.

And it's not uncommon to have an antifreeze drip when you loosen the big nut, as the other end of that stud screws into the water jacket cover plate on the pulley end of the engine. Most of the time when you button everything back up, everything is drawn up tight and the drip will stop. If it does not stop, take off the bearing and the pivot arm, temporarily double nut the stud, loosen it a few turns (but not too many!), apply some Permatex white teflon thread sealer on the threads, and tighten it up using the double nut. Remove double nut and re-assemble normally.

OMG!!! Cleaning up someone else’s mess is so frustrating. Oh well... that is what I have so I have to fix this. I have only a few more weeks to get this sorted out.
I am going to have to order a new tensioner pulley and the all the hardware to mount the pulley correctly to the tensioner bracket.
Man this takes patience and time.
Learning the whole way. I am surprised the original tensioner pulley lasted this long.
I have tread sealer from when I did the brake lines. Still should be good.
Alright... going to the WTB section and see if anyone has the hardware you mentioned. If not, Matt will get a call from me Tuesday...lol
Going to attempt this again when I get all the correct parts and hardware. Since the belt got burnt I should change it out with the pulley.
Frustrated,
Mike

 

[Tavalin]

Found the hose pic that I used to sort out the vacuum hoses when I purchased the X1/9
This really helps but I don’t know why I didn’t see the distributor vacuum hose. Oh well... going to verify that all the other hoses and sensors are correct and move back to the timing.
Can’t wait to have the time to complete this.
Mike