torque rod (dog bone) mount question

Discussion in 'Discussion Forum' started by JimD, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    Before I go cutting up an old dogbone, does anyone know the the rod connecting the two bushings is solid metal or if it is a tube? Thanks
     
  2. Mark

    Mark FIATFREAK

    Solid

     
  3. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    Thanks Mark, that info will save me destroying a dogbone just to find out. :) I need to find a way to bring the to ends closer together in small increments. Since it is solid, it wont crimp if I experiment by putting it in my buddies big press for a little rod tweaking. It looks pretty stiff, so this may not work at all, but I will see what happens.
     
  4. bpimm

    bpimm Brian Pimm

    Location:
    Washougal, WA
  5. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    Thanks Brian, I watched a couple videos on how to make rods adjustable and I may end up doing that in the end. If I have a chance to bash something with a big hammer, or in this case a big press, I want to give it a go and see what happens. I really only need a tiny bit of adjustment to move my header away from a support it is rattling against. I have replaced the lower mount and dog bone, the snail looks fine. A 1300 rod is too short and the 1500 rod is too long. Once I get into the project I will also look at the mount on the head end to see if it can be "adjusted". I think even 1/8" would make a difference.
     
  6. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    For such a small change in length, bending it might be the easiest approach. Otherwise I like the idea of making it adjustable. That can also help to compensate for changes in length as the rubber bushings collapse (which they will). Even just a large "coupler nut" and thread the ends of the rod after cutting it. One end would need to be unbolted from its mount to make adjustments, but that's easy to do.
     
  7. Rod Midkiff

    Rod Midkiff True Classic

    Location:
    Eugene, OR
    There was a posting some time back about someone taking two bad dog bone mounts (each only had one bad end) and cutting, threading the shaft and then putting them together to make one good mount.
     
  8. darwoodious

    darwoodious Darin Nelson

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    cut in half. get a "sleeve nut" (like a turnbuckle but stronger). I just mic'd the parts car - reads 0.48" so accounting for the rust, it's probably a 12mm rod? if you can find metric, go for it. here in the states it sometimes is easier to get english stuff, so go for 7/16. you'll need a right and left hand thread die. lube it up and go for it!

    https://www.amazon.com/20-Stainless-Steel-Threaded-Coupling/dp/B008AY3UEQ

    not sure what you're trying to accomplish but it sound fun. wasn't there recently a posting of someone who used a mountain bike shock for the dogbone? that'd look cool. probably drive like crap but look cool.
     
  9. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    Wasn't there a thread about making a dog bone from a modified 124 spider rear axle locating arm?
     
  10. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    I found a few related threads talking about making dogbones, but the pictures are all dead. I like pictures. I get the gist, so I will try a few things and see what I can accomplish.
     
  11. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    I seem to recall there was a suggestion to use the 124's rubber bushings in the X1/9's dog bone. But there may have been one about making a new bone with 124 parts as well.
     
  12. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    I started poking around today and decided to pull the newish dog bone out and compare it to the previous dogbone. The newish mount is just a tiny bit longer then the old mount. I stacked them up with the old on top then newish on bottom to check the alignment. When I try to drop the long bolts thru both ends, only one will drop in. The bolt other end hangs up on the edge of the metal sleeve of the newish mount. Not exactly scientific measuring, but it is repeatable. :)

    I had replaced the old mount trying to chase this same rattle and the new mount didn't help at all. So today I put the old mount back in as it isn't completely cracked. The metal is rusty, but the bushings actually look pretty good. The newish mount has a weld in the center of the bar that joins the ends, so maybe I will take that one apart to experiment with, since it was obviously cut once already.

    While I had the mount removed I pushed and pulled on the top of the engine and I could see the gap between the header tube and cross member change slightly, but nothing significant. My muffler is held up really tightly on each end. Maybe trying to lower the muffler a bit is another avenue to try to gain some clearance for the header tubes under the cross member? First, I need to test drive the old mount and see if there was any change at all.
     
  13. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    On one of my cars the dog bone was cut and welded in the middle like you describe. And it was not welded straight; the center rod has a 'kink' to it. At first I thought a prior owner must have done it. But in one of the forum conversations about dog bones I was told the supplier this one came from sells them that way. I cannot understand why they do this, possibly they sourced some really inexpensive ones that do not fit so they modify them to sell for this application? The rubber bushings in it are also of very poor quality, with a "made in" stamp from a very peculiar country.

    Jim, if rocking the engine without a mount in place did not replicate the noise then perhaps it is caused by something else? If indeed it is the exhaust system hitting the cross member then I think you might want to address the exhaust rather than the engine mount.
     
  14. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    Is it possible to modify the crossmember to make clearance?
     
  15. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    Rocking the engine did change the header tube to cross member gap, just not enough to make a big difference IMHO. The noise is a rapid rattle that I only get when I lift off the gas in a low gear and the engine acts as a brake. I guess that induces a shake in all the mounts which creates just enough movement in the exhaust to bang the tube into the cross member. And yes, I think I will need to address the exhaust hangars to find some clearance... or shave the cross member a bit as carl mentions below.
     
  16. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    hi carl,

    I have been looking at the area that is next to the header tube and thinking that there was no reason I couldn't grind it back a bit. The tube looks like it is contacting the edges of the flange where a-arm bolts to the cross member. So relieving the edges on the cross member is on my list too. I tried to get a picture since I had not provided on yet. You can see it is REALLY a tight gap at this point. I marked the contact point in the second picture. There is a similar contact point on the header tube at the front of the cross member.
    IM003514.JPG IM003514b.jpg
    I was following your thrust bearing discussion and pried on my crank pulley to see if it moved laterally. It did not. I had Brayden take my X for a drive while I was at MWB this weekend. His trained ear confirmed that it was the exhaust making contact and not something horrible about to happen internal to the engine.

    Other than this strange and annoying noise, the car runs really well. :)
     
  17. Dr.Jeff

    Dr.Jeff True Classic

    Location:
    Sin City
    Sorry Jim, I misread your earlier comment....thought it did not change the gap.

    Looking at your pictures, ya that's too close. The lower engine mount tends to sag with age, dropping the engine down further relative to the crossmember. So I guess that gap will increase as the lower mount changes. However I suppose if the upper mounts wear and allow the engine to sit at a further forward angle, then it will move in the opposite direction and offer less gap. So it might be a wash as things change. But if it were me I'd want to make sure there was plenty of space to accomodate any changes that might occur over time as a result of the mounts naturally deforming. And that seems to possibly be something of an issue; rather than changing the mounts to make more room (which will change again as they wear/sag), make more physical clearance between the exhaust and crossmember as you say. In other words I'm agreeing with your later comments (assuming I understand correctly this time) that focusing on the dog bone may not be the best answer.
     
    JimD likes this.
  18. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    I have had a bunch of Xs with headers and never seen any with so little clearance at the crossmember. have had similar type issues with spider down pipes and the engine support crossmember which I had dealt with by making more clearance on the crossmmemer (much simpler with the spider) and or flattening the downpipe with a big ass hammer where it touched the crossmember.

    If this was Project Binky on YouTube, the guys would remove the engine mount on the chassis, drop it a bit and reweld it to the chassis to lower the motor.

    Seriously, I'm not a fan of modifying the dog bone to tilt the motor as this will stress the nose motor mount and the shifter rod connection.

    What make is the header?
     
  19. JimD

    JimD Waiting for Godot... Moderator

    Location:
    Missouri, USA
    carl,

    I am pretty sure it is a Vicks header, although I also believe it to be a remake of the IAP headers that were sold many years ago. I have the same header on my 78 project car and I dont think it is anywhere near this close to that cross member. I will keep playing with it.
     
  20. carl

    carl True Classic

    Location:
    Virginia
    If the 1500 block is taller than the 1300 block and the header was meant for a 1300, maybe that's why it's so close? Of the three or four headers I have had, I never knew where they came from or whether they were for a 1300 or 1500.
     

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