Torque with LSD in X1/9 5 speed

GregS

ProjectX
Can anyone on xweb with a good understanding of limited slip diffs help me understand the torque loads on the diff carrier itself. As most know, the diff carrier in the 5 speed transmission is a weak point in fast launches with sticky tires and a good amount of power and torque from a modified engine. What I am wondering is if a LSD kit is fitted to an otherwise standard diff carrier, so torque is more evenly distributed to both axles, is this going to put even more load on the diff carrier than the standard open diff would? In other words, is spinning both wheels simultaneously going to load the diff even more, or is spreading the torque to 2 axles evening out the loads, going to be more gentle on the diff? Or will it make no difference to the load on it?
Any advice to help me get my head around this would be appreciated. Preferably from someone with experience with these matters.
 
Hi Greg. I ran limited slips for several years on my autocross cars. First there are several types and your right the 5 speed carrier is a bit weaker than the 4 speed one but anything can break. I have broken tri pod joint outer axle stubs and axles then selves, never a 4 speed carrier or more correctly 1/2 4 speed carrier and 1/2 aftermarket carrier. Upgrading to the later stub axles is a good and strong update, you should already have those with the 5 speed. I had axles made from 302 steel, about as good as it gets and they lasted for 10 years before one of them failed. By the way stock early axles wont get it done, 5 speed axles should hold up pretty well but do have their limits. Now the limited slip. There are gear driven ones, torsen. There are clutch pack type with clutch pack on one axle or packs on both axles. Some also have a cam that tightens the clutch pack and some don't. Some replace part of the carrier itself, these are much stronger, and some don't. A type that was originally was called a phantom grip is nothing more than some heavy springs pushing against two steel blocks that push against the outer spider side gears, not recommended for the 5 speed transaxle. Also some that replace the carrier or at least part of the carrier may also add a second crossbar which is much stronger. Some have a preload and some don't. Yes it will put higher loads on the drive line components and yes you can spin both wheels given enough power. Also the tires are really important since race tires give much greater grip than Walmart specials but that means more load on components. One other thing is the gear ratios, lower gears multiply the torque much greater than higher gears. If you've never figured the torque levels in lower gears verse higher gears you would be surprised how much torque is available at the wheel. Well over 1000 foot pounds. The one that I currently have in my, currently modifying, X19 is a scorpion transaxle and has two axle packs, constant preload, a second crossbar and spiders, aftermarket 1/2 carrier and cams that tighten the clutch pack under heavier load, gas peddle. It works great and you don't even know it's there, it's a ZF unit and it does spin both wheel as much as you want but you come off a corner much much faster. I don't know what type you are talking about or what kind of power, but at least get one with a preload. If done correctly it will completely remove any trailing throttle oversteer allowing you to break right into the apex of the corner and accelerate right off the apex. You will have to make suspension alignment corrections. Hope this helps, there is a lot to take in.

Keep revin
Charlie
 
Thanks for the detailed responce Charlie. At this stage I am just trying to figure out if a LSD kit, of any type, fitted to a standard diff carrier without strengthening it will make it more likely to break under load. From your statement about halfway down "Yes it will put higher loads on the drive line components and yes you can spin both wheels given enough power." it sounds like it would be more likely to break.
In which case I should avoid a LSD kit that doesn't include a stronger diff carrier. I will take note of your recommendations as to the most suitable types.
My X1/9 has 135hp, 109 ftlbs torque (flywheel), weight 700kg, tyres 185 60R13 Toyo R888R, diff ratio 4.08:1, 1st gear a very low 4.09:1 , yes, it does have enough power to spin the tyres on launching, but I try to avoid those fast starts.
 
The main issues are, finding a LSD for an X1/9 and that its a significant cost. The LSD's that are available are different for 4 speed and 5 speed boxes. I've a clutch pack/plate type LSD fitted to my X1/9 (190hp and 180ft/lb torque) to, as Charlie says, help address stability on entering and wheel spin on exciting corners. I, like yourself, are mindful of the design parameters of the original components and try to be sympathetic off the line (I mostly fail ;)) .My experience with torque bias diffs is that they don't really help with such above issues due to the way they work, however, I'm sure there are other benefits and they are definitely easier to life with for road use.
A Mk1 1300 Fiat Uno turbo LSD is a straight fit into a 5 speed gearbox. I got very good service from the below company. Their set up replaces the entire internals, you just use the crown wheel
https://gripperlsd.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIx_Xn98KD6QIVibPtCh09qAO2EAAYASAAEgKxhvD_BwE
Fitting an LSD made significant improvement to the handling, but, I there followed a lengthy process of adjusting my suspension to get the best results from the investment
 
Thanks for the input, Speedy fiat. It looks like the Gripper LSD (if still available) or Classic Performance Parts plate types in new housings would be the preferred option. The Phantom Grip or Traction Concepts LSD conversions in the standard diff carrier/cage should be avoided because of the extra load on the carrier.
I was having a think about how a diff operates, a standard open diff sends equal torque to each axle, so the tyre with good grip doesn't get any more torque than a spinning tyre. But with a LSD, the tyre with good grip will get even more torque sent to it than the spinning tyre, potentially over loading transmission components.
Steve Hoelscher said in a recent post, when he fitted a torque stabaliser to his lower engine mount to restrain engine/transmission movement, it was much easier to spin the wheels, this put less load on the diff, hence no more diffs breaking.
 
I would think an LSD would still be available from Gripper as it was only 2-3yrs ago I bought it. I said it was the 1.3 Uno Turbo, but it also fits the 1.4 Mk2 Uno Turbo and the early Punto Gt's. You're best to contact them direct as they would have to do some digging to find the designs.
 
Greg, the aftermarket torsen and clutch type LSD's are complete replacement units that replace the original diff completely, including the carrier. These are typically machined from stock and are not cast iron as the OE unit is. They are significantly stronger.

I have installed a Phantom Grip LSD in an X1/9 but have never used, or even seen, a Gripper. These obviously utilize the original diff carrier and thus are prone to failure under high load.

When I was competing in X1/9 I seldom has issues with grip launching the car, that is once I sorted the torque surpressor and motor mount situation. The car would consistently spin both rear tires, evident on video, if the surface and starting line area were level and consistent.

A well setup X1/9 really doesn't need an LSD until power levels exceed 120 whp unless your tire choice is limited or you run on low grip surfaces. If you are regularly spinning the inside rear tire on corner exit that's likely an issue with setup and not the open diff.

I am not a fan of clutch type LSDs anyway as they have far too much impact on the car's rear grip and handling characteristics. You literally have to setup the car around the diff. Torsens don't have this problem and are much easier to setup and drive. In my experience, I am faster with a torsen than a clutch.
 
I have installed a Phantom Grip LSD in an X1/9
Steve, are you referring this type?
PG-Street-LSD-KIt-768x286.jpg


If so, aside from the potential of carrier failure, what was your take on that style of conversion? Not so much if is needed or not, but more about the pros and cons of this approach. Granted it is not ideal and not necessarily comparable to a 'real' LSD. But you have to admit the cost difference is SIGNIFICANT, particularly with the limited options for the X's box.


When I was competing in X1/9 I seldom has issues with grip launching the car
Was that with a stock open diff? Or a LSD?


Based on experiences with other vehicles (haven't tried any on a X1/9), I agree with the preference for the torsen type over clutch-plate type LSDs.
 
The PG unit I installed was in a car I never drove and the driver never provided me any feedback after the install. I do have some experience with PG units in Hondas, with less than stellar results. However, I have a friend in North Carolina that makes these units for various applications with much better reviews than PG. He sells them primarily to SCCA and NASA club racers.

Given the limited active area of the actual friction surface, I can't see these as being as effective as a proper clutch type limited slip differential. A true clutch type diff has multiple plates, each with many times the surface area to manage slip and heat. The PG unit makes up for the limited surface area by vertical load on the friction surface. I would theorize that once there is more than moderate speed differential between the two wheels that the PG unit would not be able to deal with the amount of slip and heat. Thus once a wheel began spinning freely the PG unit would not be able to recover.

Also, the PG unit is always at full activation. That is the friction surfaces have a constant preload due to the preload in the springs. So its active even at idle speed when parking. A modern clutch type diff has a ramp for the pinion gear that varies the applied load on the clutch plates with the amount of torque being transmitted to the tires. Thus, with no load its effectively and open diff and therefore is mostly passive until engine torque is applied.


I tested a clutch type LSD in my X1/9 and found it to be slower than open diff in all circumstances. My comment about traction at launch was indeed with an open diff. On level ground, on a consistent surface, it would spin both rear tires for about one car length at launch. This was regularly documented with video.


I prefer the torsen type (torque biasing) diff because it doesn't equalize wheel speed on corner exit. The problem with a clutch diff is; when torque is applied and it locks up you effectively have a fully (nor nearly) locked differential. On corner exit this causes throttle oversteer because the difference in the radius of the arch traveled by each rear tire. The lesser loaded inside rear tire will break traction. While the LSD will prevent it from spinning freely, it has in fact lost most of its traction and therefore does not contribute to lateral grip. Without that additional tire's grip the rear end's net grip is reduced. Not what you want on a car with a rear weight bias already. So LSDs tend to cause throttle oversteer and because the X is a rear weight bias car, and total lateral g is determined by the end of the car that looses grip first, it will significantly reduce total lateral g. A torsen diff does not do this and therefore the same car will maintain more lateral g on corner exit than one with a clutch type LSD.
 
Thankyou to all that gave very helpful advice on LSDs, I am now much more informed. I have just picked up a reconditioned 5 speed with lsd off an Aus online sale site, a bit pricey at A$2k, about US$1.3k, but now I have a spare if I blow up the one in my track car. I have no details on the lsd, I doubt that it's a high end one with billet diff carrier, but I won't know unless I pull it apart. It is a clutch type as it takes some effort to turn one cv flange while holding the other. It was reconditioned about 5 years ago but never fitted to a car.
I have decided to make a torque suppressor on the lower engine mount as Steve suggested, and urethane bushes in the dog bone top mount, this should prevent damaging whichever diff I decide to use. I may just keep this as a spare as is, just in case I need it. The one in my car has a high pitch whine only noticeable in 5th gear at high speed and full load, I don't know if it's the diff or 5th gear, but if it gets any worse I should pull it and have a look.
By the way Steve, the Gripper lsd clutch type has its own billet machined carrier. Photos are not of the Fiat one though
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I am looking to fit a torque suppressor rod to the lower engine mount, can anyone confirm that there is nothing inside this part of the case if I cut about 12mm off the end of it. It is in the way of where I want to fit the rod and I don't want to do any damage, or have oil pouring out. By the way, which is the engine mount stud that shouldn't be replaced with a bolt, because it can leak oil?
 
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I did a search and found that the stud than can leak if replaced by a bolt that is too long is the front one next to the gear shift rod, it can break thru the blind hole into the shift rod hole. (hidden behind the engine mount in this shot).
Now just to work out if cutting that lug off is going to cause a problem.
 
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I am looking to fit a torque suppressor rod to the lower engine mount
I will follow your findings. I realize that something must be done when going close to 200Nm and +200hp so please add photos when ready. I filled the the gaps on the lower mount with hard rubber bond. It became very hard and stiff. I haven't tried it yet but I think it will handle the torque a little bit better.
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I am looking for a dogbone with polyurethane but can't find one. I rather not mould the existing rod as I must buy minimum 3 liters of polyurethane.
Would high tourque have an impact also on the right upper mount? It looks to work like a hanger only
 
I am looking for a dogbone with polyurethane but can't find one. I rather not mould the existing rod as I must buy minimum 3 liters of polyurethane.
One possible option might be to make poly inserts for the existing dogbone by turning them from a piece of round stock. Look for the thread on replacing the stock dogbone inserts with generic rubber ones. That might give some ideas on how this could be done with turned poly pieces. Although personally I think it may be easier to pour in a liquid product, as you are already considering.
 
I will follow your findings. I realize that something must be done when going close to 200Nm and +200hp so please add photos when ready. I filled the the gaps on the lower mount with hard rubber bond. It became very hard and stiff. I haven't tried it yet but I think it will handle the torque a little bit better.
I am looking for a dogbone with polyurethane but can't find one. I rather not mould the existing rod as I must buy minimum 3 liters of polyurethane.
Would high tourque have an impact also on the right upper mount? It looks to work like a hanger only
Bjorn, filling the voids with hard rubber bond should help, I might do that as well as the torque rod. I am looking at some urethane bushes that may be able to be machined to fit the dog-bone, if not I can buy 50mm urethane rod and make them that. Will post when sorted.
JohnB in Aus sent me a pic of the trans inside where I want to cut, it's all solid casting, so no problems cutting that lug off.
95439098_2567549163519102_2590742818615984128_n.jpg
 
By the way, there are big differences between various lower engine mounts. The one on the right has a 16mm shaft, the shaft broke away from the backing plate while driving, it was welded back on from the back side, and broke again. The other mount has a 25mm shaft, and a thicker backing plate, so far is all good.
20200503_171834.jpg
 
By the way, there are big differences between various lower engine mounts.
I've also noticed differences in the "voids" formed into the rubber portion of these mounts. Some have them off to either side of that shaft while others are more toward the bottom (top?) of it. Considering the direction of the loads, the location of those voids may make a difference in how the mount responds. But I agree that filling all the voids is a good idea either way.

I've seen good results using urethane adhesive to full the voids in various engine and trans mounts. It is available in a 'calking gun' style tube for installing windows. Easy to inject it that way, and it is an adhesive so it stays in place once cured. Dries to a semi solid like a typical urethane bushing.

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Low budget option is to use torsen differential made for Ladas. Lada Samara (VAZ-2108) torsen diff can be fitted to 5-speed gearbox with some machining. VVieri has made tutorial for the fitting operation.
https://www.villevieri.com/egbox.htm

2108 limited slip differentials are available on the Ebay and many parts shops.
 
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