Torque with LSD in X1/9 5 speed

ippe said:
VVieri has made tutorial for the fitting operation
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I've come across some other mods VVieri has performed in the past. He's very resourceful and had done some amazing work. But after reviewing this diff mod (in the link provided by "ippe"), I'm uncertain just how durable a couple aspects of it might be? But as seen in the link I posted previously the Lada LSD is very affordable.
 
That is a very interesting option, and certainly affordable. Quite a few mods required though, but worth thinking about. Pity they don't make one for the Fiat 5 speed that drops straight it.
 
That is about as cheap a torsen LSD as I have ever seen. And if I were going to put an LSD in an X1/9, it would be a torsen.

Its an interesting conversion and, as Jeff noted, there are a few aspects that I find less than ideal. Using a sleeve for the bearings is a big one. Those bearings get hot and I would worry about the ability of the sleeve to deal with the heat and load from the bearing. That would need to be a precision machined part pressed onto the diff carrier. I read the description several times and still have some questions with how they fit the ring gear to the carrier. The stub axle extension is another but I think I could figure a solution out for that.

If somebody was really wanting one of these for their car I might consider attempting this as a development project.
 
I have contacted that guy (VVieri) in the past to ask about another project he did. I happened to find a page describing it online (much like the linked one above), and at the bottom of the page was a email address. So I sent a message, not expecting a reply (the web content was very old). But to my surprise he responded and we exchanged several messages. Nice guy, knowledgeable, and his English is quite good. So if anyone is really interested in this, try contacting him for additional details (I agree, some of it isn't quite clear just how it was done).

I also wonder what the quality of that Lada LSD is. But I've purchased other products from the same source and it was very good for the price. Plus they have excellent customer service. Shipping from Russia might be a bit costly for a heavy object lie a LSD. If you add it to the shopping cart you will find out what the shipping cost will be.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I have contacted that guy (VVieri) in the past to ask about another project he did. I happened to find a page describing it online (much like the linked one above), and at the bottom of the page was a email address. So I sent a message, not expecting a reply (the web content was very old). But to my surprise he responded and we exchanged several messages. Nice guy, knowledgeable, and his English is quite good. So if anyone is really interested in this, try contacting him for additional details (I agree, some of it isn't quite clear just how it was done).

I also wonder what the quality of that Lada LSD is. But I've purchased other products from the same source and it was very good for the price. Plus they have excellent customer service. Shipping from Russia might be a bit costly for a heavy object lie a LSD. If you add it to the shopping cart you will find out what the shipping cost will be.
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I might send him an email and see what I can find out. I also might order one of the LSDs just to see what it looks like and if I can make a similar conversion. I have a couple of good machine shops and a guy that is pretty good at stuff like that.

Quality of Russian parts can vary widely. Interestingly, Yugo transmission parts are actually very good. Their metallurgy and machine quality were as good or better than Fiat's.
 
Sakke said:
I have similar LSD (Lade Samara FWD) installed in my Uno Turbo gearbox.
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Google translate to English wasn't perfect but good enough to follow what you did. ;)
Looks like a very nice project. :)

I see you referenced V. Vieri elsewhere. He is very creative with his projects. Is that were the Lada LSD idea came from? But if my translation was correct, your approach was different in places. For example you mounted the ring gear on the opposite side of the carrier and used different bolts to clear the gears. I did a similar thing on a VW trans mod once, worked fine. And you state your conversion has held up for 15 years with a highly boosted engine. I believe that approach prevented the need for a few of the other mods that V.Vieri had to do? So this sounds like a viable option for doing it.

Steve or anyone interested in this idea, a thought occurred to me. I wonder if there might be any possibility of sourcing replacement bearings that can eliminate the need for the sleeves/bushings/spacers? In other words larger OD-ID difference so they fit the case and the diff carrier without adding spacers?

Geez, if correct sized bearings are found, and the ring gear is swapped over, this starts to become a much more doable project (I think). o_O
 
I don't recall from whom I heard first that there is a possibility to fit FWD Lada Samara LSD into Uno Turbo box. I bought the LSD and and half done sleeves and gave those with the gearbox to machinist I knew. He wasn't very impressed when found out out that all the parts were already hardened :mad:. I cannot take any credit of the conversion since it was him who came up with all ideas. I just stayed quiet and listened when he told me what and how he had done it :D

Br,
Saku
 
A while ago in this thread I mentioned I got hold of a recond 5 speed, I just pulled the LSD out to use in my track X. I was hoping to see what brand it is, but there are no markings or numbers anywhere. Does anyone recognise what it might be from the photos. It is a clutch plate type with a billet housing, 20ft-lbs of torque before an axle starts to slip.
thumbnail_101_0191.jpg
thumbnail_101_0192.jpg
thumbnail_101_0197.jpg
 
I don't recognize that unit. Its not an Alquatti. I have one of those. Can you tell if its a clutch type of gear type? I doubt its a gear type (torsen) as I don't see any provisions for a pinion shaft in the housing. It appears to be a clutch type.

I assume there are no marks that might indicate a manufacturer or part number?
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
It appears to be a clutch type.
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Steve, does the housing look a bit 'small' to be even a clutch type? I don't have a good example to compare it with, but I seem to recall they were a bit larger to house the clutches? Could it be something like the Phantom Grip type inside?
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Steve, does the housing look a bit 'small' to be even a clutch type? I don't have a good example to compare it with, but I seem to recall they were a bit larger to house the clutches? Could it be something like the Phantom Grip type inside?
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That housing looks like a nicely made part. I can't imagine going to that much effort to put a PG type friction block in it.

I suspect its a clutch type. There are some very simple clutch type diffs that utilize a single clutch pack. Its crude but effective.

I have been hoping to find a source for a torsen type diff for an X1/9 but have yet to find one. I keep hoping that somewhere, somebody made one for an Uno or similar and I just never heard about it.
 
I have been having a close look at this lsd. Here is a photo looking in one axle hole, there appear to be plates in the centre about 20mm total thickness, with a 12mm hole in the centre. That is not like photos I have seen of typical clutch plate lsds.
thumbnail_101_0196.jpg

Also I can also see what looks like planetary gears inside looking thru the 7mm holes around the periphery, these rotate as I turn the axles in opposite directions. If I try to turn one axle while holding the diff in a vice it locks up. I'm guessing it's something like this inside?
Helical torque biasing lsd.jpg
 
GregS said:
I have been having a close look at this lsd. Here is a photo looking in one axle hole, there appear to be plates in the centre about 20mm total thickness, with a 12mm hole in the centre. That is not like photos I have seen of typical clutch plate lsds.
View attachment 32616
Also I can also see what looks like planetary gears inside looking thru the 7mm holes around the periphery, these rotate as I turn the axles in opposite directions. If I try to turn one axle while holding the diff in a vice it locks up. I'm guessing it's something like this inside?
View attachment 32617
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This is a torsen type differential. Also known as a torque biasing differential. It has no clutches.

If you don't see anything like clutch plates and only gears, then its likely a torsen. If that's the case you really do have a Unicorn and the cost of the transmission you complained about is frivolous.

I should note that a torsen will work like an open differential with no wheels on the ground. The diff directs torque to the wheel with the most traction (torque biasing) but will act as an open diff if there is one wheel free. It must have something to push against to redirect the torque.
 
This is what threw me off, the overall size of the housing where any LSD would live seems a bit small to me. But as I said I don't have good examples to compare, other than the pics Greg showed:
thumbnail_101_0197.jpg
Helical torque biasing lsd.jpg
 
That was my first assumption as well. Given the size of the carrier, gauged on the speedo drive gear and comparison to the OE carrier, it would be a tight fit to put a torsen in there. Of course I can't gauge how much room is available on the ring gear side from the photographs.

I would love to have this thing on my bench to see what it was and how its designed. It would be nice to know the manufacturer.
 
Yes, it is pretty compact. The 2nd photo I posted shows the ring gear side, it is recessed from the face of the gear. I am not sure how these lsd's should feel, if I hold one stub axle I can rotate the other with 20ft-lbs of torque. If I hold the ring gear in a vice, I can not turn 1 stub axle (well, only about 1 degree to take up some slack). Bit I can turn both stub axles in opposite directions, at the same speed. Also, if I hold one stub axle in the vice, it takes about 60ft-lbs to turn the crown wheel, then the other stub axle turns in the opposite direction. I am waiting to hear from an oz diff specialist to see if he can identify it, it looks similar to some Mfactory ones such as this for a BMW, but they don't have a listing for an X1/9. I have looked online at all the other torque sensing lsd's I can find but can't see one the same.
M Factory lsd BMW.jpg
 
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