Turbo systems for X1/9's

I can measure the size of the intercooler later for you if you like
The motor runs steel rods forged pistons standard crank the head is fitted with larger valves and lightly ported
21 psi is not that high originally we where thinking that it would run closer to 30psi but the head flow is not great enough and the added boost just causes more heat than hp gains
We also log back pressure and it has been found that the motor cannot ingest the charge it needs larger valves in the head which is just not physical possible with the 80mm bore engine
 
Thanks, I figured it wasn't stock but wasn't sure what you had.
What you said about added pressure, head flow, and increased temps makes perfect sense. I noticed the intake manifold looks to be modified also? It's my understanding the stock UT one is another restriction for higher boost levels.
Do you have the stock UT exhaust manifold? Looking at the pictures the turbo does not appear to be the standard UT unit.
I'm also curious where you have the air intake located (to feed into the turbo)?
 
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Thanks Myron, very much appreciated.

At last week's SEMA Show I was able to meet with several experts regarding my turbo/EFI build. It's amazing who attends and how accessible they are at this event. I learned a LOT, and from sources I completely trust. The net result is that some of my plans have been confirmed as solid, while others will be modified. But overall I was very encouraged that the project should work as intended without too much change. In fact some of the things that I thought were a compromise (for the sake of practicality, budget, ability, etc) are actually preferred. Who knew my ignorance and simple minded approach actually works sometimes.

A couple things in particular that very much surprised me are:

Using the currently available knock sensor technology on this (my) application isn't preferred. It will be better to acquire a slightly more conservative tune to prevent the occurrence of detonation, than to try to chase it when it exists. There are emerging technologies (I saw the prototypes for a couple) that will change this, but it will be awhile before they are available and they will be very expensive. With the current technology, it can be made to work fairly well in some cases. But to do so requires a very sophisticated ECU, rather advanced engineering knowledge to set up properly, lots of specific (and expensive) testing for each particular application, etc, etc. As much as many individuals may like to believe they have it figured out, the experts say otherwise.

While ECU choice is important, the higher-end (and very costly) units with lots of extra features simply won't be necessary for my particular application. Obviously this will be different for each project. But with my goals and overall set up, a basic simple system is more than sufficient. Frankly that was surprising but also a relief for me, as I am new to developing a boosted standalone management system and really wasn't confident about setting up some of the more advanced functions on the higher-end units.

However I did get mixed opinions on a couple things. For example a wasted spark ignition set-up was universally considered good (for anything not using a single coil), frankly I thought I would have heard otherwise. But on the other hand, for a street driven application, sequential fuel injection is preferred by some experts but not everyone. I thought they would all pretty much believe sequential the better approach. To go sequential complicates things quite a bit as it requires a second (cam position) sensor that is otherwise not needed, it involves much more complicated mapping and tuning, and naturally the ECU must be capable of supporting it. I am still sifting through all of the inputs I received and reviewing the options available to me. But I may change my plans and go batch or "semi-sequential" for the injection, just for the sake of simplicity. This is a change in direction for me because as I stated I had the impression that sequential was more universally preferred. And it is for other applications; if plan to run higher boost levels, are using a newer design of engine with more sophisticated engineering/technologies, intend to engage in any competitive or high performance (i.e. greater than street) use, need to meet emissions regulations, are focused on fuel milage, highly desire the best idle and low RPM stability, etc - then sequential is certainly the way to go.

In general my plan to take a old school '79 carbureted 1500 Fiat X1/9, convert it to EFI and add a turbo was well received. Even the American muscle car guys liked the idea and asked to hear back as it develops. The European guys loved it even more. But more encouraging was to hear that my choice of components, intended set-up, and general plan received general approval. Adds a little motivation - not that it will make things happen any faster though. :oops:
 
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Thanks, I figured it wasn't stock but wasn't sure what you had.
What you said about added pressure, head flow, and increased temps makes perfect sense. I noticed the intake manifold looks to be modified also? It's my understanding the stock UT one is another restriction for higher boost levels.
Do you have the stock UT exhaust manifold? Looking at the pictures the turbo does not appear to be the standard UT unit.
I'm also curious where you have the air intake located (to feed into the turbo)?
Sorry for the late reply
It's not a standard uno exhaust manifold it's a tubular setup
And the air intake is where the fuel tank used to be
 

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Sorry for the late reply
Worth the wait, that is a great manifold. I've seen similar ones advertised on European sites, but they don't ship to the USA. Is yours custom or available from a vendor?

I'd live to see the full run down on your engine build. Have you documented it anywhere?
 
That looks like a fairly large turbo for the motor - or is it just camera angle? I like that you added a hotside support bracket, that should help the longevity of the header. Where are you picking up the oil pressure feed for the CHRA? Can't see where it runs in the pic - one line looks like it's attaching to the pan, which doesn't make sense, unless you ran an internal pressure hard line off an oil galley to meet at that point?
 
one line looks like it's attaching to the pan, which doesn't make sense, unless you ran an internal pressure hard line off an oil galley to meet at that point

That's the standard location for the gravity drain for the turbo oil - the Uno Turbo uses this same spot as well.

Uno Turbo block does have an oil feed for the turbo nearby, but his line looks like it wraps around the back to the feed just below the head (Just guessing, as that does look like an Uno Turbo block.
 
That's the standard location for the gravity drain for the turbo oil - the Uno Turbo uses this same spot as well.

Uno Turbo block does have an oil feed for the turbo nearby, but his line looks like it wraps around the back to the feed just below the head (Just guessing, as that does look like an Uno Turbo block.

I see the drain. It's the feed attached (blue arrow in attachment) to the pan next to it that doesn't make sense (it loops behind the turbo on his, very long hose)...
 

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Hi guys
The engine is a uno turbo block
You can see the oil feed in the side of the block
The hose had not been cut to length and was just hanging there
The fitting in the sump is the oil return line
 
Hi guys
The engine is a uno turbo block
You can see the oil feed in the side of the block
The hose had not been cut to length and was just hanging there
The fitting in the sump is the oil return line

The oil feed is the brass”T”? That’s a coolant drain on my motor.
I know what the AN oil drain fitting is.
What is the fitting I mark with the blue arrow?

Not familiar with Uno Turbo engine differences from NA block
 
Lately I've been collecting the last of the required sensors, harness connectors, and related bits. The final two components I haven't purchased yet are the ECU itself and the wideband O2 controller. The WBO2 decision depends on the ECU choice; many of the newer ECU's include the WBO2 controller onboard. But after everything I learned at SEMA, plus the vast amounts of reading I've been doing, I am changing my initial thought of using one of the more advanced ECU's. Although they are the latest technology, packed full of features, and a great buy cost wise, frankly they are more than I need for this simple/conservative build. I'm now leaning toward the little "MicroSquirt" ECU. Although I'm not a huge fan of MegaSquirt's entry level products like this, I do like the fact that it has more tuner support locally and the overall cost of building the system and getting it sorted will be much closer to my narrow budget than any of the options. Also the fact it is such a simple, barebones product actually makes for a easier install (in some aspects). However it is one of the ECU's that does not include the WBO2 controller. There are a few excellent units out there, but at quite a steep price (for this build). More on this in the next post. The MicroSquire is also severely lacking on the number of output channels to support things like boost control, idle control, AC cutout, electric fan control, and displays. It will do those things but not all at once. So I'll have to compromise and eliminate a couple items (not ideal).

The MicroSquirt will only support injectors that aren't readily available in the required specs for the 1500 SOHC. At least not without doing extensive fuel rail mods, which is exactly the type of thing I'm am trying to avoid here. And it only supports batch fueling and wasted spark. But it does allow what they refer to a "semi-sequential" for both. This isn't something I've much info on. But the concept is the cylinders are paired into two channels, each with the two cylinders that fire at the same time. Then the two channels can be mapped at different timing to accomodate for the difference in crank rotation between the pairs. This should (?) reduce the load for the injector and ignition coil cycles and offer slightly better running at idle and low RPM's. More needs to be learned about this. If anyone has info to offer that would be appreciated.

I decided to use a coil set up with a single unit that contains two coils, each having two output leads, and a onboard controller (ie "smart coils"). This is a simple arrangement for the MicroSquirt that offers paired firing (eg. the semi-sequential thing), reduced coil saturation, very healthy spark output, and a clean package that will be easy to install.

There are still quite a lot of things to be planned, built, and sorted so it won't be together for awhile yet.
 
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Regarding wideband O2 controllers, as mentioned in my last post (above).
I'm looking at a couple of the more affordable units for this low budget turbo build. The "Spartan2" from 14point7, the "ALM inline" from Ecotrons, and the "D1G1" from APSX. Maybe there are others (in the same price range) that someone can suggest as well?

D1G1 was designed specifically for MegaSquire applications. It is a simple and very affordable unit. One major plus compared to the others is it includes a small digital display for the O2 reading that can be installed anywhere on the dash rather discreetly :
APSX_G1-8T.jpg


Another plus is the price point, only $40 without the sensor (which I already have). And it is configured to easily integrate into your MS system wherever/however you want. However the major drawback is it only supports the LSU 4.2 sensor. Not only is that older technology, but the sensor I have is a LSU 4.9.

ALM Inline and Spartan2 are basically the same thing from two different manufacturers. They include the controller unit into the harness itself. That actually makes them a bit more difficult to integrate well into my layout. They are based on the LSU 4.9 sensor, but do not allow for any type of dash display. The price is around $75 (without sensor). There seems to be quite a bit of negative talk online about the 14point7 product. Perhaps that is typical of all of them though.

One thing I haven't quite figured out yet is what options the MicroSquirt offers for display outputs. The are too few output channels to allow for a dedicated display (at least with the various functions I will be using). The tuning software (TunerStudio) shows it on your laptop while tuning, but that doesn't display it continually real time on the dash. There is another piece of software that might do this (?) called "Shadow Dash" that will show displays on a Android smartphone type device. But I have no interest in putting such a device permanently in my old school car (which is how I intend to do it). So I'm not sure how to get a decent display from the MicroSquirt (just another of the reasons why I don't like it). Anyone know more about this please?
 
Jeff,

it will pay you to read throu the various forums to chk the output ability and in what format any data is sent......

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index....id=1127/category_id=646/mode=prod/prd1127.htm


it looks like it has a can bus and also serieal .....

http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm

there are lots of different "modules" developed by people......

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=101


http://74.124.198.224/~micro/viewforum.php?f=87&sid=809f70cbfddaff7ef1e7bedbf97c1d30


I know that it does boost control - see what is "possible" on a minimal budget......

http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb...&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0

I remember wiping the e85 off the floor on several runs, b/c the injector was just spraying into the compressor cover, while Simon pulled the string......

worthwhile "working out" what outputs are essential for your project........

rgds

sdo
 
Best advice I can think of is to find an older 4-cylinder turbo car in a salvage and take everything off it and adapt it to your X. The older computers from the mid-eighties are 8-bit. Digital speed density with low imedence injectors is what the ‘84 750 turbo uses. This system has been adapted to 4-cylinder car engines. The 750’s fuel injection computer is not an ignition source but it does require an ignition pulse (hall sensor) so firing order is irrelevant. It’s batch fire every 720 degrees, one big shot. Some systems batch fire every 360 so fire twice per power cycle. Although it’s a motorcycle system that is what makes it so compatable with small vehicle engines. Sensors are: boost sensor, cylinder head temp, intake air temp, ignition, throttle position. We use the throttle bodies off the 1100cc engine with no adverse effects. I have run over 30psi of boost with no adverse effects. At around 3500rpm the computer will double the fuel Load as boost is coming on. This is what it’s all about. There’s no mistake when everything comes together. A rising rate adjustable fuel pressure regulator from Sid Pogue. Set at 40psi, 300cc low impedance injectors, turbo injectors spray a pencil lead stream so keep that in mind. The HT10B Hitach modified with a Garrett T3 40 trim compressor wheel will be all the turbo you need. The big compressor wheel turns relatively slow but moves enough air to feed a 350 Chevy engine, zero lag. Or a Garrett ‘disc potato’ not my terms but a quick eBay search will pull it up. Skip the cheap China knock off’s. Built in wastegate style. Keep boost under 14psi and it will outlast the car. Inter cool if you wish, most people claim it hurt more than helped. Intake manifold, it would be nice if a ‘84 Kawasaki 1100 GPz throttle body rack could be adapted. Fuel rail and injectors are in the rack. Stainless 1 1/2 tubing with silicon tube connectors and manifold fitting on the head side all kept close to the head.
 
Simon, I'll have to take some time to review the links you posted.
Although the MicroSquirt is capable of doing lots of things, it only has a couple of output channels. So you need to pick the functions that are most important, and within the ECU's quantity of available channels. That pretty much leaves things like displays low on the list.
I believe the can bus feature is only for input devices. But I'm not that familiar with it yet so I may be incorrect. If the output can also work on can bus then that would help in terms of having data sent to display gauges (that are can bus capable).
I've been trying to review the MS (and a couple other) forums but honestly they are not of great quality. Lots of time wasted with no real help. But I'll continue to pursue it.
Thanks.
 
Ryan, perhaps you missed the prior posts. But I already have everything except the ECU. I will be using a aftermarket ECU rather than trying to modify something from another vehicle. Now it is just a matter of understanding how to set up some of the functions, as mentioned above. I'd like to know that the unit can do what I need before purchasing it. If not then I'll look at another option. Thanks.
 
Ryan, perhaps you missed the prior posts. But I already have everything except the ECU. I will be using a aftermarket ECU rather than trying to modify something from another vehicle. Now it is just a matter of understanding how to set up some of the functions, as mentioned above. I'd like to know that the unit can do what I need before purchasing it. If not then I'll look at another option. Thanks.

Excuse me Doc. I do read your posts and enjoy you’re ideas. Must have missed where you posted about gathering parts. If I were to consider adding a turbo system, it would be the the system off the ‘84-‘85 750 turbo. Mostly because of it’s simplified installation of sensors and adaptability. Wide band 02 sensor would be stand-alone but useful for tuning. Complicated pieces like idle control units wouldn’t be needed. The old KISS plan would work for me.
 
No problem Ryan. I agree, if starting from scratch there are some good options like what you reference. Initially I was going to use all of the stock components from the Fiat UnoTurbo. The basic engine design is the same so everything bolts onto the X1/9 (pretty much). One advantage would be it is a conservative factory system, which is my goal for reliability sake. Unfortunately there are a few key components for the system that are very difficult (and rather expensive) to source here in the US. So my plans changed. I am still using the exhaust manifold and turbo from the UnoTurbo. But the rest has been gathered from mostly aftermarket components. I've tried to keep the whole project as budget friendly as possible for such a build. I hope it will still be reliable and drivable. Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
Purely theoretical question about coolant sensor locations (1500 FI engine).

On a custom aftermarket ECU installation, it is easier (in my opinion) to use a non-stock coolant sensor. Not really necessary, but I want to use a new sensor either way, and I need to make a new wire harness for everything anyway. So why not make things easy by using a sensor the ECU already recognises without having to input a bunch of extra data.

Furthermore, the stock "time/temp" switch (sensor) is no longer utilized. And the dash cluster is being replaced with aftermarket gauges, requiring a non-stock water temp sensor as well. All of the original smog type stuff is eliminated, so any extra temp sensors to activate those systems are also no longer needed.

That gives some options on where to mount the temp sensors (two of them, one for the ECU and one for the dash gauge). This is on a late FI head, so there are two 'coolant' holes in the side of the head, and one in the T-stat housing. All are a different thread size from the new sensors, so any of them will need to be drilled/tapped to accept a new sensor.

The question is, are any of the possible locations any better (or worse) than the others to mount the new sensors? I tend to think the T-stat housing is the least reliable source of true engine temp. In which case it could be eliminated by using a different T-stat housing without the hole. If that is true, it would leave the two locations on the head. They are relatively close to one another, so not likely any real difference between them. But I've never cut open a head to see where all the coolant passages go, and if there is any difference between them.

Any input about all 3 optional locations?
 
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