Valve spring rates

Discussion in 'Workshop Forum' started by rjplenter, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    Supertech is in San Jose, Silly Valley (silicon Valley). I could stop by to check them out as they are not too far away.

    Supertech does a lot of advertising in Race Car Engineering magazine, this is the publication for the race car industry that includes lots of race car bit suppliers from DYI to Formula One.

    At just under $20 per bucket, the cost is reasonable IMO.


    Bernice
     
  2. Maybe I misread your reply?

    On first reading I thought you were saying why cut corners because you weren't sure about the quality of these buckets.

    But now I reread your reply and I might have misunderstood???
     
  3. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    No, just not sure of their quality. The do advertise a lot in Race Car Engineering. They could be extremely high quality buckets. The only way to really know is to try some. What is know, they have been around for years. Given the extreme over head cost of SV, their product must be at least reasonable or they would have been gone years ago.

    Been curious about Supertech for a while now and this might be more reason for me to visit them just to see how their stuff is made.. if visitors and tours are allowed.


    Bernice

     
  4. Thanks Bernice.

    Actually my post was directed toward Steve. It's probably a mistake reading posts on here at 4am when you're eating breakfast, his wording read quite differently several hours later.

    But yes, I wonder about the quality too. They have been around for sometime and as you say, that should be a positive sign.

    I am seriously tempted to try them, but first I need to lock down a source of under bucket shims. Centreline (old IAP) has a wide selection of Alfa items that should fit.

    Cheers,

    Rob
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  5. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    I was saying they look good... at least they are from a known manufacturer unlike the items out of eastern europe...which are a mystery.

    Pewgoat shims look like they will do the job...

    weight is the enemy, and this type of setup will save a reasonable amount of it...

    SteveC
     
  6. Pug bits are scarce here

    In the almost 13 years I have been here I have seen one 404. Nothing else.

    Centreline has a wide range of caps for 8mm Alfa valves (1.5 to 3.5mm in 0.025mm increments) , so I think that will my best option. Pug ones might be easier to get in Oz than Alfa ones.

    I thought I had found a suitable conical spring and ordered one the other day. It just arrived and despite the dimensions shown in the catalogue it is not conical. :wall:

    The biggest issue I am finding is locating a spring with a suitable solid height. It has to be 25.5mm (around 1 inch in old money) max. Since most of these springs are made for big V8s their solid heights are more in the 32-34mm range. This one is 24.8 so was promising.

    The search continues!

    Cheers,

    Rob
    (looking to build a sweet little 1.6 that will sing like an angel to 8000rpm with good VE)
     
  7. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    8mm must be for the V6 engines? and $7.95us each! (about $10 au)

    I've got a link on my other computer for someone in Australia who makes lash caps in whatever size you want... i'll send you a PM when I'm home and dig it out.

    I don't think the pewgoat ones will be that pricey, but I might be wrong.

    Edit: did a bit of internet searching and found the website...
    http://www.precisionshims.com.au/products/lap
    1.00mm thru to 5.00mm in 0.01mm increments

    I was hoping to get a rough idea of what I need by inserting 8 x say 3.50mm shims, and then being able to figure out exactly what sizes I need from there...as long as 3.50 gives some clearance.

    SteveC
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  8. Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  9. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    Pretty much what happens with valve springs or any other spring that has un-damped, un-controlled energy.

    Energy put into a spring will go some where and systems like this will have a series of natural frequencies associated with it.

    In these high speed videos, the self resonance an nodal behavior is easily visible. This is where the grief and problems of valve floating at high engine RPM happens. Reducing weight-mass of the valve system goes a ways to increase the self resonate frequencies to reduce these problems. Increasing spring rate has a similar effect except the inertial of more weight-mass makes the entire valve system more difficult to control.

    Every gram reduced in the vale system matters in a high RPM performance engine. As there will be lower energy stored, less energy stored means easier to control as engine RPM increases.

    Another valve video, BMW motor bike at 14,000 RPM.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsa6kq-qqIE


    Bernice
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  10. Great explanation Bernice!

    Ever the engineer. :)

    I ordered a set of those Supertech shimless buckets so looking forward to seeing those.

    I found an Eibach (my favourite suspension springs!) valve spring that might suit my purposes but after ordering it the supplier thinks they may have been discontinued. Tip: take them of your :censored: website then...

    I've found another conical ovate wire spring and ordered it, so will assess it's suitability soon, I hope.

    Cheers,

    Rob
     
  11. Rupunzell

    Rupunzell Bernice Loui

    Location:
    California
    Nature plays by it's own set of rules under Nature's conditions and remains comply firm with these rules.
    Oh, no apologies from Nature when these laws and rules are violated. Nature simply carries on paying absolutely no attention to what happened.

    The trick to getting the best results from any techno widget that involves the ways of Nature's laws and ways, is to make the best deal and compromise possible. Working against Nature often ends in tears and disappointment. Much is the same in dealing with members of humanity, those who have a deep understanding of humanity and individuals often make the optimum deals and pacs for those involved (even when many human transactions are based on what individuals would like/expect the world and Nature to be)...


    Bernice
     
  12. Agreed

    You're so right. In this case we are trying to get the best out of an air pump that loses most of it's efficiency through wasted heat. The more of the produced heat we can convert into torque at the crankshaft, the better.

    Yes, our best bet is to try to be clever and use the laws of nature to our advantage. [​IMG] To achieve that we must first try to understand those laws. In this particular case we have to look at what is involved in controlling the valve opening and closing process, so we must consider the spring, valve, retainers, collets and camshaft ramps as a complete unit that must work in concert to get the best out of them. That includes initial seat pressure and pressure at full open. Spring kinetics is a science in itself and must be considered as a part of a larger unit, not simply as an isolated part.

    I can learn how a valve spring or a piston ring or a crank bearing/oil interface is supposed to work by simply reading about them. Humanity? Ya gotta live amongst them and patiently observe to gain insights into how they tick. You can then assess them as a whole unit and as individual components, and then make your conclusions from there.

    Some days I'd rather just stand at my workbench and tinker with engine components... :wink2:
     
  13. fiatfactory

    fiatfactory Steve Cecchele

    Location:
    Western Australia
    Stumbled across this gem this afternoon... gives a really good explanation of the differences between dual, beehive and conical valve springs



    If you don't know who David Vizard is, then you've been living under a rock...

    I've been fortunate enough to attend one of his seminars (when he came to Australia maybe 20 years ago) and he is a seriously clever engine guy... far more clever that some other "guy" who thinks he's the god of Fiat horsepower...

    he has the same valve spring tester as I do!

    SteveC
     
    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) likes this.
  14. Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

    Dan Sarandrea (Phila) Waitin' On Parts...

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I visited my machine shop buddy on Wednesday, he was doing a pair of Veney nostalgia-class top fuel funny car Hemi heads. The car owner wanted to upgrade the valve springs, so he was fitting a set of triple coil springs, rated at 350lbs seat pressure, 1061 lbs open pressure, and for .950 lift.

    Hemi heads, even aluminum ones, are normally heavy, but these were relatively light! The ports and (titanium) valves on these were so effin' big, there wasn't all that much metal to lift!!!! :)
     
    dllubin likes this.

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