WANTED: X1/9 Front C/A & Radius Rod assemblies

Jeff Stich

True Classic
I'm trying to help a friend of mine with a theft-recovery X1/9, hopefully our little Fiat community can lend a hand? This car was stripped of a lot of random items (which I'll probably post other "Wanted" ads about later), but our main priority for now is simply to get the car back onto a full suspension setup & able to roll around the workshop/storage area. To do so, we need the following items in good, used condition:

Left & right front suspension lower control arms with original mounting hardware at inner end.

Left & right front suspension radius rods with mounting hardware at both ends (bolts at rear end to fasten rod to control arm, plus the bushings/washers/nut at front end to fasten the radius rod to the L-shaped mounting bracket on the car body [his car still has the L-brackets attached to the car]).

If anyone has any of these items sitting around (say, from a stripped/wrecked/parts car or something?), we could sure put 'em back to use! If you're in the So. Cal. (LA/OC/SanBern/Riverside) area, I can pick these up in person from you, any further & shipping will need to be discussed. Thanks! ;)
 
Jeff, I can help you with about anything you need, but I'm in Illinois. I'm sure you can find something closer.
 
Have ;
pr NOS front swing arms $35, pr NOS inner tie rods $20, pr NOS outer tie rods $20
shipping be $14
Cal

Cal,

We'll likely take the front swing arms, maybe the outer tie rods, as well. I've let him know (via email) & will try to get back to you within the next day or two. Thanks. ;)

PS - these are X1/9 items & not 128, correct? Just want to make sure.
 
Ok, so I've managed to pick up a pair of NOS lower control arms (thanks, Calvin), but still need the mounting hardware for the inner ends where they bolt onto the underside of the car. Basically items 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 (maybe, the NOS c/a's might already have them installed in the bushings?) and 9 in this diagram:

x19frontcontrolarm.jpg


We also still need a pair of front radius rods with hardware; parts 1-5, 8-13 & 15 as shown in this diagram:

x19frontradiusrod.jpg

Anybody have some of these lying around?
 
Unfortunately I do not have any of these items for you, but I'll mention something I found when searching for parts to service my front suspension.

For the front radius rod bushings (items #4 and 8 in the second picture above). Although these two rubber bushings ("pads") are different (different part numbers for the front and rear sides of the support bracket #18), I found the suppliers only sell #4 and list them for both positions; use the same pad in front and rear locations, 4 of that part number required to service both sides. The two items are different in almost every dimension, but I guess it works to use the big one for both. Likewise the available urethane replacements also use the larger one on both sides. Which got me to thinking what optional items could be used instead of the original ones. I found a rubber bushing that is made for an engine mount that fits and works well, and can be purchased for less than a dollar each. But I understand most would prefer to use the original parts as they are readily available (at least the big ones are, I could not find the smaller ones) and not too expensive.
 
Hey Dr. Jeff. Sorry, but I believe some of your statements are incorrect !!!!

The front radius arm rubber bushings ( #4 ) are actually the same part for BOTH sides of the radius arm bracket. The parts diagram SHOULD show another bushing ( and another cupped washer # 3 ) on the wheel side of the bracket. The bushing is Fiat # 4252182. Two of them for each side of the car. They are readily available from many suppliers.

For some reason Fiat just do not show them in the parts diagram. I guess they just assume that you know that they are there !!! And do not bother to show them again. Fiat do that a lot in their parts diagrams. For example, they only show 1 piston and rod, and assume you know there are actually 4 per car.....

This can make things very confusing when searching for parts. But in this case, I do firmly believe the same bushing is indeed used on both sides of the bracket. And is the exact same in all dimensions. I do not know why you think they are different....

What actually makes this particular situation even more confusing is the #8 bushing shown on the wheel side of the bracket. BUT....in actual fact this bushing (Fiat # 4290680 ) is in reality a plastic bushing that pops into the large round hole in the radius arm bracket. Most folks do NOT even realize this bushing exists, and thus assume that this ( # 8 ) is the rear rubber bushing that is missing from the diagram....Are you confused yet LOL ??
 
Jeff, if you can't find the radius rods and associated hardware anywhere else, I have those parts left over from my Scorpion. Say the word and I can ship them to you.

Pete
 
RX1900, Sorry but I'll disagree with you.

I have the original Fiat microfiche for my '79 X and it shows two different bushings (front side and rear side of the front pivot mount or "support") with two different part numbers (for the same side of the vehicle). Unfortunately I have not converted the fiche to a digital copy yet so I don't have a way to upload it here, and I'll have to get to the local library to use their fiche viewer and read the actual part numbers again. So for now I cannot validate what I'm saying, but I will when I can.

I suppose it might be different for various years of X? Perhaps Fiat used two different bushings at some point but not for all years? And I understand why you would think they are the same, as all of the vendors list them that way. But according to my factory parts fiche that is not the case. I imagine the smaller bushing is no longer available (I was not able to find any new ones when I searched that part number), so that is why the large one is used for both sides now.

To add to my view of them being different, when I removed the originals from my very low mileage X (with mostly original parts remaining throughout the vehicle), the two bushings were indeed very different in dimension and shape. I might still have the old ones (not sure if I kept them or not), but if I find them I'll post pictures to show the obvious difference between them.

If you look at the picture Jeff S. shows in his earlier post above, you can see #4 and #8 are visually different (as they are on my fiche); #4 is described as "rubber pad" and #8 is described as "rubber ring". This also tends to support what I am saying that they are different. But I realize Fiat wasn't always that accurate on such matters, as you point out. Therefore I will concede the information on my factory fiche might also be incorrect (despite having two different part numbers). The fiche I have also includes a later page showing updates to part numbers, i.e. when a new part number supersedes an old one. And I don't recall if I checked that page for these two numbers...maybe it already shows both bushings under the same part number (e.g. perhaps they subsequently replaced the small bushing with the large one)? I'll check for that also when I can get access to the fiche reader again. But my original old bushings were obviously different when removed, so when they were installed at the factory they were two different parts.

To your point about #8 in Jeff's diagram being a grommet for the support bracket and not a rubber bushing. My '79 X did not have such a grommet on either support bracket (left or right sides). Again, my X is very original (unfortunately to the point the original owner did very little maintenance or servicing to it), so I believe this is how it was assembled at the factory (naturally there is no proof of that). And my fiche does show both cup washers, bushings, etc. on either side the bracket (unlike the illustration above). Maybe this is another change at some point of the X's evolution? Perhaps different assembly arrangements were done at various production runs depending on what parts were available at the time (not uncommon for Fiat)? Who knows. I'm curious what year(s) of X is your information from?

I imagine there could be other explanations as well, but until I here them I'll stick with what I have said. Not that it matters, I am not trying to prove right and wrong, I'm just adding clarification to what I posted earlier. My intent when posting this was to assist Jeff S. with finding the needed parts; it was a bit of a difficult decision for me when I could not find the smaller bushing and wasn't sure if the large one would work well on both sides. But effectively that is what I ended up doing (however my X is still under construction so I have not road tested this yet).

Thanks for the input, Jeff
 
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The part shown as #8 is most definitely as you note. It fits in the metal bracket, the radius rod goes through it with a #4 on each side. I get mine from Chris Obert. They are usually disintegrated.

Hey Dr. Jeff. Sorry, but I believe some of your statements are incorrect !!!!

The front radius arm rubber bushings ( #4 ) are actually the same part for BOTH sides of the radius arm bracket. The parts diagram SHOULD show another bushing ( and another cupped washer # 3 ) on the wheel side of the bracket. The bushing is Fiat # 4252182. Two of them for each side of the car. They are readily available from many suppliers.

For some reason Fiat just do not show them in the parts diagram. I guess they just assume that you know that they are there !!! And do not bother to show them again. Fiat do that a lot in their parts diagrams. For example, they only show 1 piston and rod, and assume you know there are actually 4 per car.....

This can make things very confusing when searching for parts. But in this case, I do firmly believe the same bushing is indeed used on both sides of the bracket. And is the exact same in all dimensions. I do not know why you think they are different....

What actually makes this particular situation even more confusing is the #8 bushing shown on the wheel side of the bracket. BUT....in actual fact this bushing (Fiat # 4290680 ) is in reality a plastic bushing that pops into the large round hole in the radius arm bracket. Most folks do NOT even realize this bushing exists, and thus assume that this ( # 8 ) is the rear rubber bushing that is missing from the diagram....Are you confused yet LOL ??
 
It fits in the metal bracket, the radius rod goes through it with a #4 on each side.
Thanks Mark, good to know about item #8. Most likely mine had disintegrated as you suggest, explaining why there weren't any when I went through it. It makes sense there would be a grommet or something similar there as "RX1900" stated. This is one of the stressed pivot points in the front suspension.

In my opinion it should be made of a much more durable material for a high wear, stressed suspension pivot location like this. Perhaps it would be a great part to reproduce in urethane, especially as part of a kit with the urethane bushings already offered by some vendors (hint, hint).

The rubber bushings themselves deform significantly from the axial loads on the rod, as evidenced by the way they become very flattened and increased outside diameter compared to new ones. Just imagine the stress on this grommet, where there are constant side loads (as the rod swings up and down), axial loads (as the rods pushes and pulls), and constant motion (as the rod moves pivoting inside the hole in the bracket)...it doesn't have a chance of surviving without being of a strong, durable material.
 
Yes #8 is a nylon bush, sized so the steel crush tube that the rubber (donut) bushes are fitted onto slips thru it and prevents metal to metal contact between the crush tube/sleeve and the bracket. Its very similar to the bush found in 128 sedan lower control arms size wise, but the 128 coupe/X19 bush is more of a 'top hat' shape in section, so there are two 'half' bushes per side.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fiat-128-127-lower-control-arm-nylon-bush-4331968-each-/332037389110

you can use the sedan bush as shown, and with one sedan bush cut it in half and shorten it a little, then it can be used for 128 coupe / X19

SteveC
 
RX1900, Sorry but I'll disagree with you.
And my fiche does show both cup washers, bushings, etc. on either side the bracket (unlike the illustration above). Maybe this is another change at some point of the X's evolution? Perhaps different assembly arrangements were done at various production runs depending on what parts were available at the time (not uncommon for Fiat)? Who knows. I'm curious what year(s) of X is your information from?

Hmmm....this is strange....

My info comes from a parts catalog I have here. It covers North American X1/9s from '79-'80. It is a paper copy I got back in the late '80s. It came from the guy who was the head of Fiat Canada's parts dept. He lent me copy his personal parts book which I photocopied. It had lots of hand written corrections and copies of corrections sent to Fiat Canada via telex from Fiat Italy. Below is a page that I tried to photograph. Not sure how legible it will show up here.

Not sure about other years, but I certainly consider it valid for your NA '79 model.

It clearly shows the cupped washer 4290268 and the rubber bushing 4252182 on the front side of the bracket. If you know that there is another rubber bushing and cupped washer behind the bracket, then you just assume that they are the same bits. Confusing, but that is just the way Fiat did things back then.

My parts book also shows a grommet behind the bracket. This is noted as 4290680. And IS the hard plastic grommet that pops into the large round hole in the radius arm bracket. The metal sleeve 4269097 slides inside it and prevents metal to metal contact. Steve and Mark have both verified its existence. For further proof see here:
http://www.midwest-bayless.com/p-12...nternal-bushing-fiat-bertone-x19-all-new.aspx

It all makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I dont understand Dr. Jeff, is that you claim to be in possession of an official Fiat fiche for your '79 that "shows both BOTH cup washers and bushings on either side of the bracket". I have never seen a fiche or parts diagram that shows that. So just what part #s do they show for the cupped washers and rubber bushings ?? Are the part #s different front to rear as you claim ?? That would be interesting....and contrary to what is generally accepted.
 

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Interesting indeed. Fiat did a lot of "interesting" things so I'm not that surprised there are differing sources of information out there. If I get a chance to use a fiche reader again I'll get the part numbers. Off hand I don't recall either way about the 'grommet' piece (that goes into the bracket), I'm sure it is on my fiche also. But that is not either of the two bushings I am referring to, as being different for the two sides of the mount.
 
Jeff, if you can't find the radius rods and associated hardware anywhere else, I have those parts left over from my Scorpion. Say the word and I can ship them to you.

Thanks, Pete. ;)

It's been ~30 years since my Scorpion days, so I can't recall...are these the same parts as used on the X1/9? (I imagine so, or you wouldn't have offered them, right?). If so, I'll take them, just PM me your payment info. Shipping would be to 92860, USPS would likely be cheapest?
 
Jeff, I can help you with about anything you need, but I'm in Illinois. I'm sure you can find something closer.

It looks like I may have the radius rod parts coming from TX (Pete), but I'm still in need of the mounting hardware for the inboard end of each front control arm (as noted in the first photo of my post last Sunday). Do you have these items?
 
Re: the discussion about the radius rod front rubber bushings & the plastic rod collar...

Thanks everyone. I'm well aware of these parts & what was used vs. what's shown in the parts diagrams. 2 large cupped washers & rubber O-bushings (1 of each per side of the large metal L-bracket) & 1 plastic sleeve (#8) in the hole in the L-bracket have been what every X1/9 I've owned & every junkyard X1/9 I've toyed with has had as OEM stock.

For the question of why aren't 2 bushings/washers shown in the Fiat Parts Manual diagram: in most OE Fiat Parts Books I have, the number (quantity) of certain parts used is shown in the text part of the page, often on the backside of each diagram page. This is often done to simplify the diagrams & make them easy to read. For example, an engine parts diagram could get really messy if every single oil pan retaining bolt was shown, along with the requisite lines drawn across the page linking the same part number to each one.

A simple example is this Fiat 850 clutch assembly, where only 1 clutch pressure plate retaining bolt #10902231 is shown (center of page), but 6 of them are actually used to hold the pressure plate onto the flywheel:

10902231a.JPG


The backside of this diagram page shows the actual quantity used:

10902231b.jpg

Most OE Fiat parts books from the mid-1960's up through the 1980's used this format of having the parts diagram on the front of the page & the associated text description on the backside of the page. Earlier parts books had all of the diagram pages in the front half of the book, with corresponding text description pages in the back half of the book (which is a real PITA sometimes!).
 
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