Water Pump Replacement Help

obxfshn

Daily Driver
Hello! I have an 1981 Fuel Injected X with AC and the water pump is leaking. I'm looking for some direction for anyone that has removed and replaced the pump.

- What's the best way to access it? From the top of from the rear boot access panel.
- Should/Will I need to remove the alternator to get to the pump?
- Where do I find the drain for the coolant; it is in the radiator up front? (I already have the rear on jack stands as I had to do that to find the leak which I believe is helpful in draining it).
- Anyone have knowledge of the two belts that I will be replacing? (Part numbers?)

There's a local "Import Auto Repair" place in my small town, but when I stopped in after buying the X to talk to the owner to get a feel if I would use him for service, he didn't know much at X 1/9's. "Saw one or two of those back in the 80's". Is this a job that a better professional/rounded mechanic with all the tools can do without coming back to me with a insane charge to make the repair?

Thanks for any advice or insight that you can offer me.
 
- What's the best way to access it? From the top of from the rear boot access panel.
I would recommend coming at it from a multitude of angles. Rear access, removing rear wheel, below and above. Anywhere your hands can fit really

- Should/Will I need to remove the alternator to get to the pump?
Would definitely help to make some space and isn't too hard to remove. You're going to need to get at it to remove the belt, so might as well take it off.

- Anyone have knowledge of the two belts that I will be replacing? (Part numbers?)
V-Belt - Water Pump to Alternator = PN 5921138 (215) on Midwest (http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...-alternator-fiat-bertone-x19-1979-88-wac.aspx)
V-Belt - Water Pump to Crankshaft = PN 5924372 (270/688) on Midwest (http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...-crankshaft-fiat-bertone-x19-1979-88-wac.aspx)

I got my WP to Alternator belt from Advanced Auto by cross referencing the part number, however; I forget what that part number came out to. Price was about the same as ordering from MWB

Edit: In terms of taking it to a shop. When I had to replace mine, I was quoted around $300. That was with me providing the correct pump replacement and belts needed. Also, this is our family mechanic for 10+ years and has a great deal of experience on older cars. Although seeing my X surely caught him off guard.
 
to talk to the owner to get a feel if I would use him for service, he didn't know much at X 1/9's. "Saw one or two of those back in the 80's"
Methinks I would search for someone with somewhat more experience than that guy!!
You can gain a HUGE amount of knowledge and expertise from this very website! Keep on entering here for probably the best X1/9 help and guidance on planet Earth!!

cheers, IanL - NZ
 
The water pump on a A/C equipped X is different than a non-A/C X, in several ways.

The pump itself is smaller and sort of "D" shaped, the housing it goes in is different, the mounts on it for the alternator are different (as is the alternator and mounting brackets), the pulleys are different, as well as the belts, etc. As if all that wasn't enough, there is also more than one nose length for A/C water pumps (for the different pulley off-sets). So be careful to get the correct parts. When I purchased everything for mine I found most sources had incorrect listings.

The A/C compressor creates its own issues when addressing the water pump as well. However that can be greatly avoided if you only replace the actual pump and not the housing (many parts sources seem to want to sell you both). Changing the housing requires removal of the A/C compressor...a very unpleasant job.

The pump's pulley bolts onto the pump shaft/flange. If you unbolt the pulley first, the pump is easier to get out. You may even have to remove the pulley just to get the belt off due to its close proximity to the "snail" engine mount. I found there were several different belts listed for mine, and none of them were correct. In the end I purchased a bunch from the local parts store and did some trial and error to get the correct ones, then returned the rest. Also I found there is more than one routing for the belts, depending on other accessories that might exist.

The gasket between the pump and the housing is unique to the A/C version and I have not found any place that sells it. So it would be best to buy a replacement pump that includes the gasket, or make your own.

In the process of replacing the belts I noticed the factory arrangement of mounts, brackets, pulley off-sets, etc resulted in a miss-alignment of the belts. It is not huge but enough to bother me, so I made several modifications to get everything to line-up correctly. I also made some changes to make the whole pump replacement procedure easier in the future.

Yours might not be quite as difficult as mine due to mine being a '79. The task is not terribly difficult but can be very frustrating, so hopefully things improved by '81. Frankly, after the experience I had replacing it, I would not trust a regular automotive repair shop to do it. There are too many unique aspects that likely won't get done properly unless they have considerable experience with old Fiats.
 
Unfortunately it is best to remove the housing from the engine which I know entails more work.

Why you ask? To verify, and if needed adjust, the backspacing of the pump impeller relative to the housing. The spacing of the impeller to the housing can have a significant effect on pump efficiency. This isn’t difficult but should be done.
 
- What's the best way to access it? From the top of from the rear boot access panel.
I would recommend coming at it from a multitude of angles. Rear access, removing rear wheel, below and above. Anywhere your hands can fit really

- Should/Will I need to remove the alternator to get to the pump?
Would definitely help to make some space and isn't too hard to remove. You're going to need to get at it to remove the belt, so might as well take it off.

- Anyone have knowledge of the two belts that I will be replacing? (Part numbers?)
V-Belt - Water Pump to Alternator = PN 5921138 (215) on Midwest (http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...-alternator-fiat-bertone-x19-1979-88-wac.aspx)
V-Belt - Water Pump to Crankshaft = PN 5924372 (270/688) on Midwest (http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...-crankshaft-fiat-bertone-x19-1979-88-wac.aspx)

I got my WP to Alternator belt from Advanced Auto by cross referencing the part number, however; I forget what that part number came out to. Price was about the same as ordering from MWB

Edit: In terms of taking it to a shop. When I had to replace mine, I was quoted around $300. That was with me providing the correct pump replacement and belts needed. Also, this is our family mechanic for 10+ years and has a great deal of experience on older cars. Although seeing my X surely caught him off guard.


Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate it. I'm going to tackle this in the next couple of weeks. Every time I look at it I wonder why they didn't cut an access panel in the tire well!

Best,
Brandon
 
Methinks I would search for someone with somewhat more experience than that guy!!
You can gain a HUGE amount of knowledge and expertise from this very website! Keep on entering here for probably the best X1/9 help and guidance on planet Earth!!

cheers, IanL - NZ

I called the mechanic just to confirm; he said he had no way of giving me a quote and it would be time and materials with no budget possible to be quoted and said "It could exceed $1000." Yeah...no, that ain't happening!

This group has been awesome; I've learned a ton and know if I get stuck I can get help here!

Thanks,
Brandon
 
The water pump on a A/C equipped X is different than a non-A/C X, in several ways.

The pump itself is smaller and sort of "D" shaped, the housing it goes in is different, the mounts on it for the alternator are different (as is the alternator and mounting brackets), the pulleys are different, as well as the belts, etc. As if all that wasn't enough, there is also more than one nose length for A/C water pumps (for the different pulley off-sets). So be careful to get the correct parts. When I purchased everything for mine I found most sources had incorrect listings.

The A/C compressor creates its own issues when addressing the water pump as well. However that can be greatly avoided if you only replace the actual pump and not the housing (many parts sources seem to want to sell you both). Changing the housing requires removal of the A/C compressor...a very unpleasant job.

The pump's pulley bolts onto the pump shaft/flange. If you unbolt the pulley first, the pump is easier to get out. You may even have to remove the pulley just to get the belt off due to its close proximity to the "snail" engine mount. I found there were several different belts listed for mine, and none of them were correct. In the end I purchased a bunch from the local parts store and did some trial and error to get the correct ones, then returned the rest. Also I found there is more than one routing for the belts, depending on other accessories that might exist.

The gasket between the pump and the housing is unique to the A/C version and I have not found any place that sells it. So it would be best to buy a replacement pump that includes the gasket, or make your own.

In the process of replacing the belts I noticed the factory arrangement of mounts, brackets, pulley off-sets, etc resulted in a miss-alignment of the belts. It is not huge but enough to bother me, so I made several modifications to get everything to line-up correctly. I also made some changes to make the whole pump replacement procedure easier in the future.

Yours might not be quite as difficult as mine due to mine being a '79. The task is not terribly difficult but can be very frustrating, so hopefully things improved by '81. Frankly, after the experience I had replacing it, I would not trust a regular automotive repair shop to do it. There are too many unique aspects that likely won't get done properly unless they have considerable experience with old Fiats.

Hello and thanks for the great detail! I'm going to attack this project soon and will start with just trying to get the unit off! It looks intimidating with almost no working space in the engine compartment and the AC compressor in the way. I'll post updates and I proceed for advice (and mental support!)

Thanks,
Brandon
 
Unfortunately it is best to remove the housing from the engine which I know entails more work.

Why you ask? To verify, and if needed adjust, the backspacing of the pump impeller relative to the housing. The spacing of the impeller to the housing can have a significant effect on pump efficiency. This isn’t difficult but should be done.

I wasn't understanding your post at first; but I think I got it now! I looked at MWB and noticed they sell an impeller assembly http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...r-wac-metal-fiat-bertone-x19-1979-88-new.aspx as well as an assembly:
http://midwest-bayless.com/Fiat-X19...mbly-wac-fiat-bertone-x19-fi-1980-88-new.aspx

I'll remove the entire assembly and determine which parts need to be replaced. I may circle back for some advice!

Thanks, Brandon
 
Unfortunately it is best to remove the housing from the engine which I know entails more work.

Why you ask? To verify, and if needed adjust, the backspacing of the pump impeller relative to the housing. The spacing of the impeller to the housing can have a significant effect on pump efficiency. This isn’t difficult but should be done.
Karl, I think you have to remove the entire housing because there isn't enough room to pull the pump out of the housing when it's mounted in the car. Of course you can remove the housing with the pump attached, then replace only the pump and reuse the housing (which is cast iron) then reinstall the assembly.
 
Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate it. I'm going to tackle this in the next couple of weeks. Every time I look at it I wonder why they didn't cut an access panel in the tire well!

Best,
Brandon

Couldn't do an access panel inside the wheel well, that's where the spring turret is.

You get direct access to the alt, WP, and A/C comp from the access panel between the rear trunk and the engine compartment. Removal of the right rear wheel and tire, and the various plastic and metal accessory belt splash guards, also will aid access (several 8mm and 10mm hex head screws). Don't be tempted to leave them off, they are needed for proper belt protection and to a lesser extent, engine compartment cooling.
 
Brandon,

I have never really looked at the water pump on an AC equipped car, but I know on non-AC cars there are some bolts that need to come out towards the side frame rail. You can disconnect the snail engine mount and lift the engine a bit to gain some working room. Sometimes even 1/2" can make a big difference in getting a wrench on a nut.
 
Hi Brandon, after reading back through this thread I realize we are throwing a lot of info at you. And at times we may not fully explain things clearly.

First, as you found on the Midwest-Bayless site, the water pump is a two part affair. The "pump" (impeller portion) and the "housing" (what the pump mounts into). Actually it is three parts, the belt pulley comes off as well. The housing is bolted to the engine block, and the pump then rides in the housing. The impeller rides very close to the back of the housing when the two are assembled. The gap between them helps determines the impeller's effectiveness at pumping water. That gap can be adjusted either by the use of a different gasket thickness (between the two) or by moving the impeller position on the shaft. To measure and adjust this gap it is typically necessary to remove the housing from the engine. Unfortunately, due to the A/C compressor's mounts being located over the pump housing, the compressor needs to be moved out of the way to get the housing off. It may be possible to skip this and leave the housing (and A/C compressor) on the engine and not adjust the gap. In other words replace only the pump and not the housing. There are opinions on how critical this is...make your own decision here.

Second, removing the various components. To remove the pump with the housing left on the engine, the space between the pump and the car's body (chassis) is tight and might not leave enough room. I found that removing the pulley (V-belt drive) off the pump first (it bolts to the pump flange on A/C models...not on some others), you should be able to get the pump out. Otherwise the engine mount on that side (referred to as the "snail mount" due to its shape) can be disconnected and the engine lifted a little (jack from underneath) to get extra room. However removing the pump and its housing as a unit (not separating the two) avoids this, but now we are back to removing the A/C compressor. So it is something of a compromise either way, up to you what looks best.

By now you can see why this job is referred to as frustrating. After cutting up your knuckles, having some bolts get stuck/break, wrestling to move things past one another, dealing with rusted-on parts, etc you will understand why. And this is only the beginning, you still need to replace it all (hopefully with the correct parts) and figure out the drive belts, etc. But honestly it isn't that difficult and you should try doing it yourself. Think of it as paying yourself the $1000.

I'll leave it at this for now, but please ask more questions as you progress. I suggest you plan to do it in stages over a couple days time to avoid getting frustrated.
 
Thanks, I was a bit terse in my explanation. Sorry for not going into detail which Jeff has kindly done.

Short on time of late.
 
Hi Brandon, after reading back through this thread I realize we are throwing a lot of info at you. And at times we may not fully explain things clearly.

First, as you found on the Midwest-Bayless site, the water pump is a two part affair. The "pump" (impeller portion) and the "housing" (what the pump mounts into). Actually it is three parts, the belt pulley comes off as well. The housing is bolted to the engine block, and the pump then rides in the housing. The impeller rides very close to the back of the housing when the two are assembled. The gap between them helps determines the impeller's effectiveness at pumping water. That gap can be adjusted either by the use of a different gasket thickness (between the two) or by moving the impeller position on the shaft. To measure and adjust this gap it is typically necessary to remove the housing from the engine. Unfortunately, due to the A/C compressor's mounts being located over the pump housing, the compressor needs to be moved out of the way to get the housing off. It may be possible to skip this and leave the housing (and A/C compressor) on the engine and not adjust the gap. In other words replace only the pump and not the housing. There are opinions on how critical this is...make your own decision here.

Second, removing the various components. To remove the pump with the housing left on the engine, the space between the pump and the car's body (chassis) is tight and might not leave enough room. I found that removing the pulley (V-belt drive) off the pump first (it bolts to the pump flange on A/C models...not on some others), you should be able to get the pump out. Otherwise the engine mount on that side (referred to as the "snail mount" due to its shape) can be disconnected and the engine lifted a little (jack from underneath) to get extra room. However removing the pump and its housing as a unit (not separating the two) avoids this, but now we are back to removing the A/C compressor. So it is something of a compromise either way, up to you what looks best.

By now you can see why this job is referred to as frustrating. After cutting up your knuckles, having some bolts get stuck/break, wrestling to move things past one another, dealing with rusted-on parts, etc you will understand why. And this is only the beginning, you still need to replace it all (hopefully with the correct parts) and figure out the drive belts, etc. But honestly it isn't that difficult and you should try doing it yourself. Think of it as paying yourself the $1000.

I'll leave it at this for now, but please ask more questions as you progress. I suggest you plan to do it in stages over a couple days time to avoid getting frustrated.
 

Hi Brandon, after reading back through this thread I realize we are throwing a lot of info at you. And at times we may not fully explain things clearly.

First, as you found on the Midwest-Bayless site, the water pump is a two part affair. The "pump" (impeller portion) and the "housing" (what the pump mounts into). Actually it is three parts, the belt pulley comes off as well. The housing is bolted to the engine block, and the pump then rides in the housing. The impeller rides very close to the back of the housing when the two are assembled. The gap between them helps determines the impeller's effectiveness at pumping water. That gap can be adjusted either by the use of a different gasket thickness (between the two) or by moving the impeller position on the shaft. To measure and adjust this gap it is typically necessary to remove the housing from the engine. Unfortunately, due to the A/C compressor's mounts being located over the pump housing, the compressor needs to be moved out of the way to get the housing off. It may be possible to skip this and leave the housing (and A/C compressor) on the engine and not adjust the gap. In other words replace only the pump and not the housing. There are opinions on how critical this is...make your own decision here.

Second, removing the various components. To remove the pump with the housing left on the engine, the space between the pump and the car's body (chassis) is tight and might not leave enough room. I found that removing the pulley (V-belt drive) off the pump first (it bolts to the pump flange on A/C models...not on some others), you should be able to get the pump out. Otherwise the engine mount on that side (referred to as the "snail mount" due to its shape) can be disconnected and the engine lifted a little (jack from underneath) to get extra room. However removing the pump and its housing as a unit (not separating the two) avoids this, but now we are back to removing the A/C compressor. So it is something of a compromise either way, up to you what looks best.

By now you can see why this job is referred to as frustrating. After cutting up your knuckles, having some bolts get stuck/break, wrestling to move things past one another, dealing with rusted-on parts, etc you will understand why. And this is only the beginning, you still need to replace it all (hopefully with the correct parts) and figure out the drive belts, etc. But honestly it isn't that difficult and you should try doing it yourself. Think of it as paying yourself the $1000.

I'll leave it at this for now, but please ask more questions as you progress. I suggest you plan to do it in stages over a couple days time to avoid getting frustrated.


Hello Dr. Jeff and THANK YOU!

Wow! You are spot on with everything! I started this last night bearing in mind that I'm by no means a mechanic but I can usually tear just about anything apart and usually get it back together. I figured just what you said, I have more time than money and I'm going to own this X for many years and I'd rather struggle through this process but gain knowledge to understand how it works than pay a mechanic I don't trust to take his short at it.

I started by putting it up on jack stands and removing the rear right tire. I removed the plastic and metal shields inside the tire well for a better view up into the work area and allow more light in. Then I went up top and removed the aluminum air duct that runs over top of the pump, and the little bracket that holds it. I disconnected the fuel line that was going to be in the way as well. I removed the wall between the trunk and the engine, then the orange rubber air intake part, and realized the alternator must certainly come out. I wasn't able to trace where the alternator wires connect behind the engine/seats so I ran the wire over the top of the engine. Then I was able to unbolt it and after finagling it I was able to get the belt to slip off and set it to the left, out of the way. Next i removed the alternator bracket.

Then I took a break and cleaned all the parts that I took off. I put them on a workbench in the order that I removed them and made notes of the order of the process on paper.

I disconnected both of the coolant hoses that are under the car where they connect to the pipes that head to the front of the car, less than a quart of fluid drained from the first and none from the 2nd. (?)

Next I started to remove the water pump housing bolts, got three free and noticed a 4th behind the AC bracket, realizing that needs to come off now. I don't have a wrench that will fit that nut. I also noticed that the metal tube has two bolts, one that is facing me when I'm in the trunk, the other that I is impossible to get to with a wrench in it's current position.

I took a break and removed the rear panel where the muffler sits and connected a spring that I believe was making a vibration sound when sitting idle once in a while.

I'm going to see if my neighbor has a wrench for the two AC nuts; looks like it's designed to hold the top steady while turning the lower nuts to remove it. Then I'll remove the AC compressor and then the AC compressor mounting brackets followed by the 4th water pump bolt, then move it enough to get to that back bolt in the metal pipe that connects to it.

A few questions:
- Are there special wrenches for AC system nuts?
- What's the best way to flush the coolant system?
- The biggest question that I have: HOW do you get the belts on/off of these components? I was able to get the belt off of the pulley for the Alternator with work, and the AC has adjustments to loosen/tighten so I feel that I can get that one off, but I don't understand how to get the water pump belt off. Maybe when I loosen it it will tilt right towards the engine to get it off, but I don't understand how these will go bad on considering how tight the new ones will be. I'm straining from taking a utility knife to them to get them out of the way!

PS - I have the Chilton's guide and a shop manual; they seem to skip steps and lack enough photos for a neophyte like me!

Thanks to everyone that is helping me with this project! I've considered 3 times to just have the engine pulled and totally rebuilt replacing all these parts with new while it's on an engine stand, but I don't have the budget for that right now!

Thanks,
Brandon
 
Thanks, I was a bit terse in my explanation. Sorry for not going into detail which Jeff has kindly done.

Short on time of late.

No problem Karl! I've read your other posts and you've helped this community a TON! Much appreciated. I can't wait until I have enough knowledge on X's to help others.

Thanks, Brandon
 
Couldn't do an access panel inside the wheel well, that's where the spring turret is.

You get direct access to the alt, WP, and A/C comp from the access panel between the rear trunk and the engine compartment. Removal of the right rear wheel and tire, and the various plastic and metal accessory belt splash guards, also will aid access (several 8mm and 10mm hex head screws). Don't be tempted to leave them off, they are needed for proper belt protection and to a lesser extent, engine compartment cooling.

Great tips; I did just as you suggested and it's helpful for access and light to see better.

Thanks, Brandon
 
...
A few questions:
- Are there special wrenches for AC system nuts?
- What's the best way to flush the coolant system?
- The biggest question that I have: HOW do you get the belts on/off of these components? I was able to get the belt off of the pulley for the Alternator with work, and the AC has adjustments to loosen/tighten so I feel that I can get that one off, but I don't understand how to get the water pump belt off. Maybe when I loosen it it will tilt right towards the engine to get it off, but I don't understand how these will go bad on considering how tight the new ones will be. I'm straining from taking a utility knife to them to get them out of the way!

PS - I have the Chilton's guide and a shop manual; they seem to skip steps and lack enough photos for a neophyte like me!

Thanks to everyone that is helping me with this project! I've considered 3 times to just have the engine pulled and totally rebuilt replacing all these parts with new while it's on an engine stand, but I don't have the budget for that right now!

Thanks,
Brandon

If you go to p 10-75 of the shop manual you get a much better diagram of the belts than is shown in the "water pump" section later on in the shop manual.

The A/C water pump is fixed in place, and of course so is the crank, and with no intermediate adjustable pulley in between these two, the belt between the WP pulley and the crank pulley is removed/installed/adjusted by means of a split pulley on the crankshaft. There should be a set of shims under the nuts of the split crank pulley, removing or adding shims between the halves of the pulley changes the width of the pulley groove, which in turn changes how high or low the belt rides in the pulley groove and that's what gives you the adjustment. Crude but sufficient given the constraints.

The two open 1-3/8" steel pipes under the car are an open loop, the right side goes forward to the rad and the left side is the return to the stat housing, so jamming a hose into the right pipe with a rag as a bushing should yield a very nice flow coming out right back at you from the left pipe, and vice-versa for the backflush. If not, then there is a restriction, most likely the rad, as the undercar pipes are not known for clogging.

There is a drain petcock at the base of cylinders 2&3 on the right side (rear as installed in the car). It's probably harder to see and get to on an A/C car as compared to a non-A/C car.

To flush the heater circuit and the head and engine itself, you will use the heater circuit to backflush. [I can never remember for sure if the heater control valve (HCV) on an A/C car is cable operated or vacuum operated, but I think it's cable operated.] First, slide the temperature slider all the way to full hot, thus opening the HCV. Then, under the car, disconnect the heater return hose from the small metal pipe that mostly parallels the two bigger pipes. Insert or otherwise connect you garden hose as best you can to this pipe, and turn the water on full. This will flow in a backwards direction up into the heater core, out of the heater core, come back into the cylinder head, then flow thru the head and out the stat housing and out the block drain cock. Have lots of buckets and pans handy!

The X cooling system does retain water in places----a standard drain, flush and coolant change requires about 3 gallons of coolant, but a bone dry system needs almost 4 gallons. You can blow/suck out residual water from the system by creative use of a good shop vac, variously changing the hose installation on the vac to suck and blow as needed. [Safety note: wet floors plus shop vac creates an electrocution risk, make sure your shop vac cord is 100% intact and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent problems, up to and including the use of a GFCI equipped power circuit or extension cord.]
 
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