Well that didn’t last long....lol

tvmaster

tvmaster

True Classic
On greenies fourth ride, she made a funny noise, ran out of juice and just kinda died. New (reconditioned) alternator, battery, etc. Seems to be fuel, as I put a gallon in just in case, and the gauge reads just under 1/2 tank, but that doesn’t matter since it doesn’t even crank. Just ‘clicks’ when turning the ignition. Battery checks out at 12.17 volts with my multi meter. Guessing the refurbed alternator is a dud? AAA Towing on the way...
 
Last edited:
If it has been sitting awhile, drain the tank. If dirty, you will want to change the fuel filter and the filter in the carb fuel inlet. The fuel pump may have a filter also.
 
Yep. Trace the brown wire from the battery to the ignition switch. There should be a big 4 pin connector under the dash. Clean those connections. Also, clean the grounds.

While your in there, do the brown wire mod.
 
Agnelli said:
QA the ignition switch, connectors to it, make sure you are getting a full 12V to the starter.
Click to expand...
If it were the ignition switch, would it sputter and die while in third gear? I was convinced it ran out of gas, but the odd sounds preceding the death have confused me. Things recently replaced: alternator, water pump, fuel filter, all hoses, carb kit. Not sure about ignition switch or wiring though. If the alternator goes bad, what does it sound like as it’s expiring - same for the starter, do they whine, whir, grind, rattle? Something was definitely making unpleasant sounds two miles before expiry...
If the NEW battery is showing 12.17 volts, would it be less if the alternator was fried, or would it take a while for the battery to lose its voltage?
 
The key point you made was that it only clicks when you hit the starter. A bad ground or insufficient voltage/current to the ignition system will cause the car to die. My guess, based on experience with these cars (and dealing with cars that have sat for years), is that the major electrical connectors and grounds will corrode and after use the high resistance causes the connection to fail.

Of course it might have been a fuel issue. The tank could be full of rust or contaminated fuel. Pull the fuel filter and blow it out onto a clean towel and check for rust or other contamination. Also check for water and/or varnish. Did you drain the tank first?
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
The key point you made was that it only clicks when you hit the starter. A bad ground or insufficient voltage/current to the ignition system will cause the car to die. My guess, based on experience with these cars (and dealing with cars that have sat for years), is that the major electrical connectors and grounds will corrode and after use the high resistance causes the connection to fail.

Of course it might have been a fuel issue. The tank could be full of rust or contaminated fuel. Pull the fuel filter and blow it out onto a clean towel and check for rust or other contamination. Also check for water and/or varnish. Did you drain the tank first?
Click to expand...
New fuel filter is clear, new, and shows no sign of contaminents. The engine has been pulled and worked over more than once recently, coolant system COMPLETELY replaced, so I’d be surprised if they left rubbish in the fuel tank. But anything’s possible. My main concern were the nasty sounds coming from behind me for two miles prior. One of those noises, resembling electric static, weirdly stopped when I tromped on the clutch. Oh, clutch and flywheel are new as well.
Do starters just ‘die’, or do they make ugly noises first?
PS - searching here for the ‘brown wire mod’ will reveal secrets?
 
12.17V is very low, particularly on a car that ran just a few minutes prior. I would put it on a charger overnight and see if it will start and run with a freshly charged battery. If it does, then you can move on to chasing a charging problem. The '74 should have an external voltage regulator (as opposed to internal to the alternator), so the wiring is a bit more involved. Do you have a wiring diagram for the car?
 
ng_randolph said:
12.17V is very low, particularly on a car that ran just a few minutes prior. I would put it on a charger overnight and see if it will start and run with a freshly charged battery. If it does, then you can move on to chasing a charging problem. The '74 should have an external voltage regulator (as opposed to internal to the alternator), so the wiring is a bit more involved. Do you have a wiring diagram for the car?
Click to expand...
I have the service manual found on this site? 12.17 is low? Battery is at most six months old. None of this really describes the not-nice sound coming from the engine bay though.
 
Ok, after watching some Youtube videos, I’m convinced the recently replaced, refurbed alternator was a dud. Burning rubber smell, rattling, grinding noise, and what sounded like whining which changed pitch with higher revs.
Replacing that in my garage is above my pay-grade. Should an average, competent mechanic be able to deal with this on a 1974 exxe? Nothing too ‘Euro’? Looks accessible from underneath.
Any recommendations on replacement parts/companies/manufacturers, and of course, price. Do you really get what you pay for with X 1/9 alternators?
 
I agree with ng randolph. Charge the battery first and see whether it starts. Then check to see what type of alternator you have. If it has an external regulator see if that was replaced as well. If a newer alternator with internal regulator was fitted then see if the original wiring has been disconnected.
 
Healthy battery should sit around the 13.2~13.4v mark. Classic on these cars is for the engine ground strap to corrode, check it has good connection both ends. Clicking is probably the starter solenoid engaging, if the starter is not spinning you have either low battery voltage, poor ground, poor battery feed to the starter or the starter throw out gear is stuck. It can be released by putting the car in 4th and pushing it forward a few meters...
 
12.17 volts should still start the car, IF all the right connections are clean enough. And, starter working, but wonky starter won’t stop an engine that’s already running.

When checking the battery ground you need to know there are two associated with starting the car. The one is the front trunk attached to the battery should be clean on the battery end if the battery was recently serviced or replaced. The other end attaches with one bolt to the car body. Just unbolt and clean the mating surfaces on the car body and cable end.

The is an often overlooked ground strap in the rear of the engine compartment that connects the car body to the engine/transmission. Even if the engine was removed this ground strap still needs the mating surfaces between the car body and strap cleaned.

I think you need to get the car started in order to diagnose the sounds you heard and engine stopping. If it’s the alternator or regulator we can help you change them. Rather easy job using simple tools everyone with an older Fiat needs anyway.
 
Ernie said:
12.17 volts should still start the car, IF all the right connections are clean enough. And, starter working, but wonky starter won’t stop an engine that’s already running.

When checking the battery ground you need to know there are two associated with starting the car. The one is the front trunk attached to the battery should be clean on the battery end if the battery was recently serviced or replaced. The other end attaches with one bolt to the car body. Just unbolt and clean the mating surfaces on the car body and cable end.

The is an often overlooked ground strap in the rear of the engine compartment that connects the car body to the engine/transmission. Even if the engine was removed this ground strap still needs the mating surfaces between the car body and strap cleaned.

I think you need to get the car started in order to diagnose the sounds you heard and engine stopping. If it’s the alternator or regulator we can help you change them. Rather easy job using simple tools everyone with an older Fiat needs anyway.
Click to expand...

So what does stop the car while running if a wonky starter wouldn’t? If the alternator imploded, is that enough? The sounds and smell tend to agree with various Youtube alternator disaster videos...
 
tvmaster said:
If it were the ignition switch, would it sputter and die while in third gear? I was convinced it ran out of gas, but the odd sounds preceding the death have confused me. Things recently replaced: alternator, water pump, fuel filter, all hoses, carb kit. Not sure about ignition switch or wiring though. If the alternator goes bad, what does it sound like as it’s expiring - same for the starter, do they whine, whir, grind, rattle? Something was definitely making unpleasant sounds two miles before expiry...
If the NEW battery is showing 12.17 volts, would it be less if the alternator was fried, or would it take a while for the battery to lose its voltage?
Click to expand...
On my 76 X, I heard a loud grating whirring sound on the way to a car show. It turned out to be failing bearings in the alternator. That is easy to check. Loosen and remove the alternator belt. Wiggle the alternator pulley. If it has any play, the bearings in the alternator are shot.
A year later, I heard a different whirring sound. That time it was the bearings in the air injection pump.
 
I don't show about the noises, but JimG responded with pictures to another thread about "engine suddenly stopped running". The 2 wire connector came undone while I was driving. That killed the engine but I just plugged it back in and went on my way. Tightened the crimp with needle nose, no issue since.

I'd check your alternator belt for tension and damage.
 
I would remove the alternator belt and spin the alternator to see if it turns smoothly.


The noise you described could be the alternator or starter. I have seen an instance of a starter failing by engaging the solenoid and drive gear while the engine was running. That of course spun the starter at excessive rpm and killed it in seconds.

Any competent garage should be able to replace an alternator. However, the average garage will likely not want to work on the car, or have the patience to do the job correctly. I would suggest looking for a specialty shop. Where are you located? We can probably help steer you to a good shop.
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
I would remove the alternator belt and spin the alternator to see if it turns smoothly.


The noise you described could be the alternator or starter. I have seen an instance of a starter failing by engaging the solenoid and drive gear while the engine was running. That of course spun the starter at excessive rpm and killed it in seconds.

Any competent garage should be able to replace an alternator. However, the average garage will likely not want to work on the car, or have the patience to do the job correctly. I would suggest looking for a specialty shop. Where are you located? We can probably help steer you to a good shop.
Click to expand...
There’s one specialty shop about 40 miles away, but my local tech doesn’t seem shy about working on these engines, etc. Seemed to think they were kinda simpler than today’s engines. He suggested that the alternator may have seized and won’t turn, hence the no cranking thing. I tried to jump the car today, but that produced no difference in result: turn key, click. no crank.
Also, this is an externally regulated alternator. Any chance the relays/fuses/wiring involved here could be faulty? The alternator was replaced as part of the rebuild, but as a rebuilt item, it may be a dud. What’s sad is the company many would think as a reputable firm is ghosting us with regards to the car dying 45 miles from handing over a check. Very sad.
 
Steve Hoelscher said:
I would remove the alternator belt and spin the alternator to see if it turns smoothly.


The noise you described could be the alternator or starter. I have seen an instance of a starter failing by engaging the solenoid and drive gear while the engine was running. That of course spun the starter at excessive rpm and killed it in seconds.

Any competent garage should be able to replace an alternator. However, the average garage will likely not want to work on the car, or have the patience to do the job correctly. I would suggest looking for a specialty shop. Where are you located? We can probably help steer you to a good shop.
Click to expand...
Had a local chap over, got underneath and did some investigating. The crankshaft turns easily, so that’s good. The alternator fan turns easily - maybe TOO easily, so a belt may need tightening. He suspects the starter, even though it was recently replaced, likely a refurb.
So, I started perusing parts on Midwest-Bayless, as you would. It seems there are no returns for electrical parts, which I assume alternators and starters are categorized as, yes?
Is there anywhere else people shop for X parts where returns ARE accepted universally?
Also, the alternator that was put in seems to be a 33a Bosch rebuild? If you’re replacing an alternator in a stock ‘74, is there any good reason to up it to the 55a or 65a version? No AC in the car, heavy duty audio power amps, intense headlamps etc. But it is a choke car, so would extra amps help there?
 
I've got a 32 amp alternator in my car. That was common in 1974 although the 1974 service manual says 44 amp. A larger unit would help if you have devices consuming much more current but a 74 X seems to get by OK with the small alternator.

If your car has the original starter, there is a good chance it just needs a cleaning and maybe new brushes (<$10). It is in about the worst location for getting dirt and oil inside. I took mine apart, thoroughly cleaned everything, resurfaced the commutator, and put in new brushes. Works like new now. The X starter is rather robust and it would take a lot to kill it. You should also check the starter solenoid as well for dirt and damaged contacts.

The first thing I would do is connect a volt meter right to the starter and measure the voltage while you are trying to crank it. If there is a huge voltage drop, the problem may be in the wiring to the battery and/or the engine and/or battery ground.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top