Well that didn’t last long....lol
- Thread starter tvmaster
- Start date
tvmaster
True Classic
He did measure voltage in the engine bay across the starter, and it was reading the same as the battery. I think there was a 2-3 volt drop while trying to crank. There IS a completely frayed wire (essentially broken) going into the transmission, and the alternator belt was rubbing so hard against an offending hose, it was chewing the hose up, which was likely the burning I smelled?
Maybe I can throw some pictures of these offenses up when I figure out how to.
As far as the alternator amperage, if it doesn’t do any harm, fits, and costs roughly the same, why not put a meatier one in? That way, if I DO add a better stereo, etc., I’m covered, right.
tvmaster
True Classic
Weird thing is, the starter looks like it’s a new, rebuild within the last six months.
ng_randolph
Bjorn H
I would not buy a new starter or alternator or anything else until cause has been found. If you are lucky, the entire problem was the battery getting discharged due to improper belt routing / belt tension.
1. Replace the alternator belt. Address the belt interference problem and tension the belt properly.
2. Replace the hose that got chewed up by the alternator belt.
3. Inspect the grounding strap to the transmission; is this what your reported earlier was almost torn off? Replace if needed.
4. Put a charger on the battery overnight, but be sure not to overcharge the battery.
1. Replace the alternator belt. Address the belt interference problem and tension the belt properly.
2. Replace the hose that got chewed up by the alternator belt.
3. Inspect the grounding strap to the transmission; is this what your reported earlier was almost torn off? Replace if needed.
4. Put a charger on the battery overnight, but be sure not to overcharge the battery.
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tvmaster
True Classic
I’m all about spending as little as possible, but right now, the starter isn’t engaging the engine, so I’m unsure how these things would rectify that? But yes, those are now all things that need attention...
ng_randolph
Bjorn H
Understood, but did you charge the battery after the incident? A common trick with a recalcitrant starter is to give it a few taps with a mallet. For easier access, use a stick of wood with one end pushed against the starter, and tap the other end with a hammer.
As others have suggested, if you do need a new starter, an after-market gear reduction starter is a good choice. I put one in my car ~4 years ago, and it has served me very well. Note that the starter for the 1300 engine / 4 speed transmission is different from the one for the 1500 engine / 5-speed transmission.
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
1. "frayed wire going into trans" sounds like the main engine to chassis ground. It is a copper braided ground strap. It goes from a threaded plate welded to the chassis, to one of the case half capscrews on the transaxle. Over time due to powerplant movement in its mounts, the braids have a tendency to un-braid themselves and give a "frayed" look. Here's the needed item at MWB:
Fiat X19 Transmission Ground Strap At Transaxle (Fiat Bertone X19 All) - U8 (midwest-bayless.com)
2. Unless '74s are different, I am having a hard time visualize a coolant hose that would normally be within rubbing distance of the alt-wp-crank belt. I suppose the heater hose going from the right rear corner of the cyl head could be in harms way if it was wildly misrouted.....
tvmaster
True Classic
Battery is also new within the last six months. And yes indeed, we tapped and hammered to no avail
Agnelli
True Classic
Unless I missed it - have you verified you have at least 12 volts from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid? I installed a newly rebuilt starter (expensive work done by an old school shop) only to find it inoperable. Root cause was the connector to the ignition switch. If you don’t have > 12V at the solenoid take off the steering column cover and check the voltage on either side of the ignition switch connector and switch itself. And perform the brown wire mod which reduces load to these components.
kmead
Old enough to know better
Go back and just replace the ground cable, you can use a 4ga one from Autozone or the like to go from the transaxle to the body. Clean the mounting points of for both ends.
To verify the above from Jim at the starter, remove the wire from the solenoid, attach a test light/meter to it and have someone turn the key to see if you have 12v there. If yes, then you likely have an issue with the starter/starter solenoid.
Try taking a heavier gauge wire and run directly from the starter main lug to the solenoid male to ‘jump’ the starter. If the starter doesn’t work in this instance then it is toast, get a new one or return the ‘rebuilt’ unit for a good one.
If it does work then you are not getting the amperage needed to excite the solenoid from the ignition switch. You have two options here, rework the wiring from the ignition switch (and possibly to the ignition switch), replace the ignition switch or consider adding a starter relay. The starter relay will use the existing wire from the ignition switch to the excite the relay, get its primary amperage from the starter main lug and deliver 30 amps of power to the solenoid.
Frankly adding a starter relay is a good idea as it takes load off the ignition switch. The starter relay can be mounted in the spare tire well if you don’t wan’t to use a modern waterproof relay assembly or in the engine bay if it is a waterproof relay and wiring, though in the OC you don’t need to worry too much about rain/flooding.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Do NOT rapp-tapp the starter with a hammer, this is another one of those moto myths (like Pennsylvania grade crude oil is best for engine oil) that has been around from the 40's-50's that needs to die and go away. Rapp-tapp the starter with a hammer can damage the starter, on modern starters that rapp-tapp action can shatter the magnets inside destroying the starter. Starters are not anvils to be hammered on. If the starter is not running figure out why.
Rebuilt-Replace means zero as the parts involved must be verified functional. New does not automatically imply good-working as the majority of aftermarket replacement parts are... junk.
If the starter is not running, check all the high current connections first, Battery connections and cables, positive BIG wire connection to the starter (BIG green wire), Ground straps at the batter and the strap between the transaxle to chassis. If they have not been replace, replace them NOW. Same with battery connections. The ring lug to the starter main power is usually ok.
Check the voltage at the starter solenoid, this is the 1/4" spade push on. These can come off due to age and metal fatigue causing poor to no connection. If the voltage reading equals or is very close to the battery voltage at the starter solenoid terminal, check the voltage at the main power terminal at the starter. This s a M8 stud with nut and the BIG green wire. If these check out, remove the starter to do a bench test.
~Cranking voltage is going to be lower (about 10 volts) than non cranking voltage measured at the battery or else were in the electrical system due to the few hundred amps of current sucked out of the battery for the few seconds the starter is running.
IMO, ditch the stock alternator, replace it with a modern unit like a Denso. These old alternators are problems waiting to happen.
If the starter is dead, replace it with a modern gear reduction unit (Denso modified to fit) they are far more reliable and work as they should.
If this exxe is to be drive, modernize it as there is zero reason to not modernize these electrical system components. If the plan is to use this exxe as display only, then originally is important.
Bernice
Rebuilt-Replace means zero as the parts involved must be verified functional. New does not automatically imply good-working as the majority of aftermarket replacement parts are... junk.
If the starter is not running, check all the high current connections first, Battery connections and cables, positive BIG wire connection to the starter (BIG green wire), Ground straps at the batter and the strap between the transaxle to chassis. If they have not been replace, replace them NOW. Same with battery connections. The ring lug to the starter main power is usually ok.
Check the voltage at the starter solenoid, this is the 1/4" spade push on. These can come off due to age and metal fatigue causing poor to no connection. If the voltage reading equals or is very close to the battery voltage at the starter solenoid terminal, check the voltage at the main power terminal at the starter. This s a M8 stud with nut and the BIG green wire. If these check out, remove the starter to do a bench test.
~Cranking voltage is going to be lower (about 10 volts) than non cranking voltage measured at the battery or else were in the electrical system due to the few hundred amps of current sucked out of the battery for the few seconds the starter is running.
IMO, ditch the stock alternator, replace it with a modern unit like a Denso. These old alternators are problems waiting to happen.
If the starter is dead, replace it with a modern gear reduction unit (Denso modified to fit) they are far more reliable and work as they should.
If this exxe is to be drive, modernize it as there is zero reason to not modernize these electrical system components. If the plan is to use this exxe as display only, then originally is important.
Bernice
Battery is also new within the last six months. And yes indeed, we tapped and hammered to no avail
tvmaster
True Classic
Do I just search this site for "Brown Wire Mod"?
Agnelli
True Classic
You do. It’s likely in the wiki link on the hime page. Tons of information.
tvmaster
True Classic
Thanks for the opinions and help folks. But as I am not an auto tech, it takes a while to digest all this. There’s no doubt I can figure it all out (testing wiring, solenoids, etc.) but I have no way to get underneath the car - that’s beyond my scope, since I usually leave that to my local mechanic. I can do things which involve multi-meters and screw drivers, but underneath? Not at the moment
tvmaster
True Classic
Is this difficult for a newbie to check? Do I need to take the column off to do the initial voltage check?
Agnelli
True Classic
No just the column cover easy to do. Philips screws x4. Voltmeter to ground either side of the connectors
tvmaster
True Classic
Voltmeter to ground? Sorry, just a little more clarity please
which ground, any screw on the chassis?
Agnelli
True Classic
Positive to each side of each spade connector from ignitions switch to starter. I will look up the color and report back, I have notes on this. I think I used the ignition key in the ignition as ground, you can verify that is grounded by measuring ohms to another good ground, like the door striker where the latch secures to the door frame. You can also measure resistance within the switch itself, and across the connector to the ignition switch.